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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

Obama is Hitler because he wants a universal health insurance coverage for the people. LOL. At least he wants to spend more money on the people, than spend on Iraq. We might as well annex Iraq for all the money we'v spent on them, money that could have solved so many problems like healthcare here at home.


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Old Post Sep-05-2009 17:48  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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pmoisse
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Amsterdam, NL (formerly Montreal QC)


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Paul

Old Post Sep-05-2009 18:46  Canada
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Sunsnail
Global Moderator



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

thats awesome

Old Post Sep-05-2009 19:28 
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

I don't think anyone has posted John Mackey's editorial anywhere yet (that I've seen). It has gotten a lot of positive attention.

quote:

The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare
Eight things we can do to improve health care without adding to the deficit.


By JOHN MACKEY

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."

—Margaret Thatcher

With a projected $1.8 trillion deficit for 2009, several trillions more in deficits projected over the next decade, and with both Medicare and Social Security entitlement spending about to ratchet up several notches over the next 15 years as Baby Boomers become eligible for both, we are rapidly running out of other people's money. These deficits are simply not sustainable. They are either going to result in unprecedented new taxes and inflation, or they will bankrupt us.

While we clearly need health-care reform, the last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system. Instead, we should be trying to achieve reforms by moving in the opposite direction—toward less government control and more individual empowerment. Here are eight reforms that would greatly lower the cost of health care for everyone:

•Remove the legal obstacles that slow the creation of high-deductible health insurance plans and health savings accounts (HSAs). The combination of high-deductible health insurance and HSAs is one solution that could solve many of our health-care problems. For example, Whole Foods Market pays 100% of the premiums for all our team members who work 30 hours or more per week (about 89% of all team members) for our high-deductible health-insurance plan. We also provide up to $1,800 per year in additional health-care dollars through deposits into employees' Personal Wellness Accounts to spend as they choose on their own health and wellness.

Money not spent in one year rolls over to the next and grows over time. Our team members therefore spend their own health-care dollars until the annual deductible is covered (about $2,500) and the insurance plan kicks in. This creates incentives to spend the first $2,500 more carefully. Our plan's costs are much lower than typical health insurance, while providing a very high degree of worker satisfaction.

•Equalize the tax laws so that employer-provided health insurance and individually owned health insurance have the same tax benefits. Now employer health insurance benefits are fully tax deductible, but individual health insurance is not. This is unfair.

•Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines. We should all have the legal right to purchase health insurance from any insurance company in any state and we should be able use that insurance wherever we live. Health insurance should be portable.

•Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover. These mandates have increased the cost of health insurance by billions of dollars. What is insured and what is not insured should be determined by individual customer preferences and not through special-interest lobbying.

•Enact tort reform to end the ruinous lawsuits that force doctors to pay insurance costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. These costs are passed back to us through much higher prices for health care.

•Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what health-care treatments cost. How many people know the total cost of their last doctor's visit and how that total breaks down? What other goods or services do we buy without knowing how much they will cost us?

•Enact Medicare reform. We need to face up to the actuarial fact that Medicare is heading towards bankruptcy and enact reforms that create greater patient empowerment, choice and responsibility.

•Finally, revise tax forms to make it easier for individuals to make a voluntary, tax-deductible donation to help the millions of people who have no insurance and aren't covered by Medicare, Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program.

Many promoters of health-care reform believe that people have an intrinsic ethical right to health care—to equal access to doctors, medicines and hospitals. While all of us empathize with those who are sick, how can we say that all people have more of an intrinsic right to health care than they have to food or shelter?

Health care is a service that we all need, but just like food and shelter it is best provided through voluntary and mutually beneficial market exchanges. A careful reading of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution will not reveal any intrinsic right to health care, food or shelter. That's because there isn't any. This "right" has never existed in America

Even in countries like Canada and the U.K., there is no intrinsic right to health care. Rather, citizens in these countries are told by government bureaucrats what health-care treatments they are eligible to receive and when they can receive them. All countries with socialized medicine ration health care by forcing their citizens to wait in lines to receive scarce treatments.

Although Canada has a population smaller than California, 830,000 Canadians are currently waiting to be admitted to a hospital or to get treatment, according to a report last month in Investor's Business Daily. In England, the waiting list is 1.8 million.

At Whole Foods we allow our team members to vote on what benefits they most want the company to fund. Our Canadian and British employees express their benefit preferences very clearly—they want supplemental health-care dollars that they can control and spend themselves without permission from their governments. Why would they want such additional health-care benefit dollars if they already have an "intrinsic right to health care"? The answer is clear—no such right truly exists in either Canada or the U.K.—or in any other country.

Rather than increase government spending and control, we need to address the root causes of poor health. This begins with the realization that every American adult is responsible for his or her own health.

Unfortunately many of our health-care problems are self-inflicted: two-thirds of Americans are now overweight and one-third are obese. Most of the diseases that kill us and account for about 70% of all health-care spending—heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes and obesity—are mostly preventable through proper diet, exercise, not smoking, minimal alcohol consumption and other healthy lifestyle choices.

Recent scientific and medical evidence shows that a diet consisting of foods that are plant-based, nutrient dense and low-fat will help prevent and often reverse most degenerative diseases that kill us and are expensive to treat. We should be able to live largely disease-free lives until we are well into our 90s and even past 100 years of age.

Health-care reform is very important. Whatever reforms are enacted it is essential that they be financially responsible, and that we have the freedom to choose doctors and the health-care services that best suit our own unique set of lifestyle choices. We are all responsible for our own lives and our own health. We should take that responsibility very seriously and use our freedom to make wise lifestyle choices that will protect our health. Doing so will enrich our lives and will help create a vibrant and sustainable American society.

Mr. Mackey is co-founder and CEO of Whole Foods Market Inc.

Old Post Sep-07-2009 12:06  United States
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nick_rockliffe
Junior tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2009
Location: London

Obvious I am not from the US but I spent many years working as an insurance claims handler for travel insurance so got to experience the US health care system very frequently.

What Obama has proposed is an idea which has the interests of people at it's heart and that is what should be at the top of the list for any government.

We in the UK of course mainly got to hear about the attacks made to our NHS. There are a million things which can go wrong in a health care system like this (believe me).

Using the NHS as a comparison, The NHS fail most when it comes to those with medical conditions who sit in the middle. If you are dying or have a serious illness such as cancer, the NHS are unquestionable in their work and efforts, as if you have a quick minor injury such as a broken leg. Where it fails is for people like myself who suffer from conditions such as cronhes disease. I have to wait 3 months for an MRI scan then a another 4-5 months for a follow up appointment for results and action. This is simply not good enough consider my condition needs every day maintenance to keep under control.

But that said, it is well worth remembering that the NHS was set up a long long time ago and it's only now (in the last few years) they have tightened up their act in terms on money leakage etc. The US could learn a lot of lessons from NHS if this goes ahead and with real thought and a modern "business model" so it operates as effectively as it can, then I can't see why anybody would be against the notion of a such a health system.


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Old Post Sep-07-2009 20:39  United Kingdom
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The17sss
C.R.E.A.M.



Registered: May 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Yeah, right. Whatever you say, champ. What exactly happened again?:

According to eyewitnesses:

The "man who opposed Obamacare" threw the first punch, but yet he isn't a "violent angry mob?!?!?" Sorry he got his finger bit off and all, but who got violent first here?

And the biggest fucking irony of all? The fucking douchebag wingnut teabagger HAD GOVERNMENT-RUN MEDICARE!!!!!! Wonder if he's going to give his Social Security payments and Medicare back to the government anytime soon....

Keep those stories running. They're terrific.


actually no, one man can't be a violent angry mob. he threw the punch because the guy got all up in his kitchen... I would throw a punch too if some rabid fuck started screaming at me 2 inches from my face. and since when does punching someone equate biting off a fucking finger? lol

Old Post Sep-09-2009 06:30  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
actually no, one man can't be a violent angry mob.


So wait, weren't you the one who accused a pro-reformer as a "violent angry mob" in the first place? I'm simply using your language here.

quote:
he threw the punch because the guy got all up in his kitchen... I would throw a punch too if some rabid fuck started screaming at me 2 inches from my face.


Instead of walking away and avoiding any stupid controversy in the first place? In any case, the actual physical violence was started by the anti-reformer, a convenient fact that you cannot escape from.

quote:
and since when does punching someone equate biting off a fucking finger? lol


I can't and won't justify that retaliation. Admittedly, that's just fucked up.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Sep-09-2009 21:50  United States
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The17sss
C.R.E.A.M.



Registered: May 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
So wait, weren't you the one who accused a pro-reformer as a "violent angry mob" in the first place? I'm simply using your language here.


wait, who? what pro reformer are you referring to?

quote:
Instead of walking away and avoiding any stupid controversy in the first place? In any case, the actual physical violence was started by the anti-reformer, a convenient fact that you cannot escape from.


I agree with your point man... I watched a live interview with the proud new owner of a stump and he didn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed. He should have walked away, which is what most rational people would do. But he was provoked by that MoveOn guy coming to him and getting in his face, so I can sort of understand.


quote:
I can't and won't justify that retaliation. Admittedly, that's just fucked up.


it can't be easy to bite through bone. dude must have been jacked up on adrenaline or something.

Old Post Sep-10-2009 00:37  United States
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Scottaculous
habitual line crosser



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: On a plane

quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
I am a conservative.
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level
determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its
valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

Old Post Sep-18-2009 21:18 
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Brahman
Suspended User



Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Heaven

quote:
Originally posted by Scottaculous



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WORSHIP!

Old Post Sep-19-2009 00:14  Vietnam
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

Caught the 2nd part of this debate the WSJ over the weekend. Presents a different angle from what (I think) we've been debating for the last several months (years) now. One has to imagine that at some point SCOTUS will be very much involved in this debate, but I'd imagine not until some sort of legislation is passed that must then be judged. Until then I'd expect them to remain mum on the issue.

I think this applies more to the universal mandate, but the crux of the argument is that it is unconstitutional. Makes for some interesting reading. I agree more with the 2nd article than the first.

2 articles:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...3406386548.html
quote:
Health-Care Reform and the Constitution
Why hasn't the Commerce Clause been read to allow interstate insurance sales?

By ANDREW P. NAPOLITANO

Last week, I asked South Carolina Congressman James Clyburn, the third-ranking Democrat in the House of Representatives, where in the Constitution it authorizes the federal government to regulate the delivery of health care. He replied: "There's nothing in the Constitution that says that the federal government has anything to do with most of the stuff we do." Then he shot back: "How about [you] show me where in the Constitution it prohibits the federal government from doing this?"

Rep. Clyburn, like many of his colleagues, seems to have conveniently forgotten that the federal government has only specific enumerated powers. He also seems to have overlooked the Ninth and 10th Amendments, which limit Congress's powers only to those granted in the Constitution.

One of those powers—the power "to regulate" interstate commerce—is the favorite hook on which Congress hangs its hat in order to justify the regulation of anything it wants to control.

Unfortunately, a notoriously tendentious New Deal-era Supreme Court decision has given Congress a green light to use the Commerce Clause to regulate noncommercial, and even purely local, private behavior. In Wickard v. Filburn (1942), the Supreme Court held that a farmer who grew wheat just for the consumption of his own family violated federal agricultural guidelines enacted pursuant to the Commerce Clause. Though the wheat did not move across state lines—indeed, it never left his farm—the Court held that if other similarly situated farmers were permitted to do the same it, might have an aggregate effect on interstate commerce.

James Madison, who argued that to regulate meant to keep regular, would have shuddered at such circular reasoning. Madison's understanding was the commonly held one in 1789, since the principle reason for the Constitutional Convention was to establish a central government that would prevent ruinous state-imposed tariffs that favored in-state businesses. It would do so by assuring that commerce between the states was kept "regular."

The Supreme Court finally came to its senses when it invalidated a congressional ban on illegal guns within 1,000 feet of public schools. In United States v. Lopez (1995), the Court ruled that the Commerce Clause may only be used by Congress to regulate human activity that is truly commercial at its core and that has not traditionally been regulated by the states. The movement of illegal guns from one state to another, the Court ruled, was criminal and not commercial at its core, and school safety has historically been a state function.

Applying these principles to President Barack Obama's health-care proposal, it's clear that his plan is unconstitutional at its core. The practice of medicine consists of the delivery of intimate services to the human body. In almost all instances, the delivery of medical services occurs in one place and does not move across interstate lines. One goes to a physician not to engage in commercial activity, as the Framers of the Constitution understood, but to improve one's health. And the practice of medicine, much like public school safety, has been regulated by states for the past century.

The same Congress that wants to tell family farmers what to grow in their backyards has declined "to keep regular" the commercial sale of insurance policies. It has permitted all 50 states to erect the type of barriers that the Commerce Clause was written precisely to tear down. Insurers are barred from selling policies to people in another state.

That's right: Congress refuses to keep commerce regular when the commercial activity is the sale of insurance, but claims it can regulate the removal of a person's appendix because that constitutes interstate commerce.

What we have here is raw abuse of power by the federal government for political purposes. The president and his colleagues want to reward their supporters with "free" health care that the rest of us will end up paying for. Their only restraint on their exercise of Commerce Clause power is whatever they can get away with. They aren't upholding the Constitution—they are evading it.

Mr. Napolitano, who served on the bench of the Superior Court of New Jersey between 1987 and 1995, is the senior judicial analyst at the Fox News Channel. His latest book is "Dred Scott's Revenge: A Legal History of Race and Freedom in America" (Nelson, 2009).


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100....html#printMode
quote:

Mandatory Insurance Is Unconstitutional
Why an individual mandate could be struck down by the courts.

By DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. AND LEE A. CASEY

Federal legislation requiring that every American have health insurance is part of all the major health-care reform plans now being considered in Washington. Such a mandate, however, would expand the federal government’s authority over individual Americans to an unprecedented degree. It is also profoundly unconstitutional.

An individual mandate has been a hardy perennial of health-care reform proposals since HillaryCare in the early 1990s. President Barack Obama defended its merits before Congress last week, claiming that uninsured people still use medical services and impose the costs on everyone else. But the reality is far different. Certainly some uninsured use emergency rooms in lieu of primary care physicians, but the majority are young people who forgo insurance precisely because they do not expect to need much medical care. When they do, these uninsured pay full freight, often at premium rates, thereby actually subsidizing insured Americans.

The mandate's real justifications are far more cynical and political. Making healthy young adults pay billions of dollars in premiums into the national health-care market is the only way to fund universal coverage without raising substantial new taxes. In effect, this mandate would be one more giant, cross-generational subsidy—imposed on generations who are already stuck with the bill for the federal government's prior spending sprees.

Politically, of course, the mandate is essential to winning insurance industry support for the legislation and acceptance of heavy federal regulations. Millions of new customers will be driven into insurance-company arms. Moreover, without the mandate, the entire thrust of the new regulatory scheme—requiring insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions and to accept standardized premiums—would produce dysfunctional consequences. It would make little sense for anyone, young or old, to buy insurance before he actually got sick. Such a socialization of costs also happens to be an essential step toward the single payer, national health system, still stridently supported by large parts of the president's base.

The elephant in the room is the Constitution. As every civics class once taught, the federal government is a government of limited, enumerated powers, with the states retaining broad regulatory authority. As James Madison explained in the Federalist Papers: "In the first place it is to be remembered that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects." Congress, in other words, cannot regulate simply because it sees a problem to be fixed. Federal law must be grounded in one of the specific grants of authority found in the Constitution.

These are mostly found in Article I, Section 8, which among other things gives Congress the power to tax, borrow and spend money, raise and support armies, declare war, establish post offices and regulate commerce. It is the authority to regulate foreign and interstate commerce that—in one way or another—supports most of the elaborate federal regulatory system. If the federal government has any right to reform, revise or remake the American health-care system, it must be found in this all-important provision. This is especially true of any mandate that every American obtain health-care insurance or face a penalty.

The Supreme Court construes the commerce power broadly. In the most recent Commerce Clause case, Gonzales v. Raich (2005) , the court ruled that Congress can even regulate the cultivation of marijuana for personal use so long as there is a rational basis to believe that such "activities, taken in the aggregate, substantially affect interstate commerce."

But there are important limits. In United States v. Lopez (1995), for example, the Court invalidated the Gun Free School Zones Act because that law made it a crime simply to possess a gun near a school. It did not "regulate any economic activity and did not contain any requirement that the possession of a gun have any connection to past interstate activity or a predictable impact on future commercial activity." Of course, a health-care mandate would not regulate any "activity," such as employment or growing pot in the bathroom, at all. Simply being an American would trigger it.

Health-care backers understand this and—like Lewis Carroll's Red Queen insisting that some hills are valleys—have framed the mandate as a "tax" rather than a regulation. Under Sen. Max Baucus's (D., Mont.) most recent plan, people who do not maintain health insurance for themselves and their families would be forced to pay an "excise tax" of up to $1,500 per year—roughly comparable to the cost of insurance coverage under the new plan.

But Congress cannot so simply avoid the constitutional limits on its power. Taxation can favor one industry or course of action over another, but a "tax" that falls exclusively on anyone who is uninsured is a penalty beyond Congress's authority. If the rule were otherwise, Congress could evade all constitutional limits by "taxing" anyone who doesn't follow an order of any kind—whether to obtain health-care insurance, or to join a health club, or exercise regularly, or even eat your vegetables.

This type of congressional trickery is bad for our democracy and has implications far beyond the health-care debate. The Constitution's Framers divided power between the federal government and states—just as they did among the three federal branches of government—for a reason. They viewed these structural limitations on governmental power as the most reliable means of protecting individual liberty—more important even than the Bill of Rights.

Yet if that imperative is insufficient to prompt reconsideration of the mandate (and the approach to reform it supports), then the inevitable judicial challenges should. Since the 1930s, the Supreme Court has been reluctant to invalidate "regulatory" taxes. However, a tax that is so clearly a penalty for failing to comply with requirements otherwise beyond Congress's constitutional power will present the question whether there are any limits on Congress's power to regulate individual Americans. The Supreme Court has never accepted such a proposition, and it is unlikely to accept it now, even in an area as important as health care.

Messrs. Rivkin and Casey, Washington D.C.-based attorneys, served in the Department of Justice during the Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.

Last edited by Shakka on Sep-20-2009 at 15:19

Old Post Sep-20-2009 14:17  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Caught the 2nd part of this debate the WSJ over the weekend. Presents a different angle from what (I think) we've been debating for the last several months (years) now. One has to imagine that at some point SCOTUS will be very much involved in this debate, but I'd imagine not until some sort of legislation is passed that must then be judged. Until then I'd expect them to remain mum on the issue.

I think this applies more to the universal mandate, but the crux of the argument is that it is unconstitutional. Makes for some interesting reading. I agree more with the 2nd article than the first.

2 articles:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...3406386548.html


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100....html#printMode


If these two jokesters from WSJ are willing to deem any public option as illegal, or requiring us to have health insurance as illegal, then they along with the rest of the Conservative movement is going to be losing their heads if their arguments are proven valid by SCOTUS. Because not only will that kill any new health insurance law, it will effectively destroy Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. Best of luck with that one, bub. Whatever remnants there are remaining in that very loud and vocal 25-30% conservative minority you have will most assuredly shrink down to such levels that will never recover.

And sure, we can play strict constructionism all day long, but I'd venture to say if we broaden that blanket out just a little further, we'd find a whole slew of shit that our wonderful so-called "constructionist" conservative members of SCOTUS are completely guilty of bending and twisting a few decisions and laws around, but I digress a bit.

The other thing I tend to wonder about is this - if we were to take their arguments to their logical end, does that essentially also end insurance for other items that we are required by law to have, i.e. house and car?


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Sep-20-2009 16:00  United States
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