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Originally posted by Yan ARRESTED.

The Guardian is posting automatic updates on this story.

I'm sure Kafka is somehow behind these recent accusations

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Originally posted by Arbiter Lol.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby You guys are just naive with no real grasp on how real international politics are handled.

Out of curiosity, Nou, when did you get such a deep knowledge of how international relations? I mean, I'm sure some of the people here have studied political science, international relations (I know I did) among other relevant fields, and I do know self-study can do wonders... but when you say everyone else is naive, I'd rather believe you've had access to some special information no one of us has ever seen. Is this what happened? If so, do you mind sharing this eye-opening experience with the rest of us?

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Originally posted by enydo You guys just DON'T UNDERSTAND.

lol ya thats it

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby No, actually I am not. If I was trolling I'd be agreeing with you because Kevin agrees that it is wrong. You guys are just naive with no real grasp on how real international politics are handled. You over simplfy and are reactionary when details are exposed, never stopping to think that maybe its not a big deal that this shit is secret... its stuff thats been secret for a long time, done the same way, and yet your standard of living for the most part (in almost every western country) continues to go up (not as fast as it should in a lot of places, and definitly not entirely even across the board), so really what does wikileaks leaking shit have to do with anything that will benefit you, it only stands to hurt you.

Because it all comes down to what benefits ME or hurts ME right? You seem to have a pretty simple view on this too. Unfortunately with this massive amount of leaks there's going to be people negatively affected by it from all sides, including the west. Just because this shit has been "secret" for so long doesn't mean it should stay secret. People have every single right to be informed on what the people they elect do behind the scenes and how they run their country.

You can't just say "oh this needs to be secret because it's in your best interest. trust me. it's for your own good"...that's usually the first sign of bullshit.

The way the West is reacting to this just completely undermines the spread of "freedom of speech" and so called "democracy". Next time China lines up a bunch of reporters in front of a firing squad and says "it's all in the interest of national security and these men and women are traitors" it'll actually be justified right?

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Next time China lines up a bunch of reporters in front of a firing squad and says "it's all in the interest of national security and these men and women are traitors" it'll actually be justified right?

Right now countries like Iran and china are laughing at the US. Do people really expect Iran and China to have more freedom of speach and freedom of expression after all of this? I said the same thing during the G20 summit in Toronto. The wold was looking at what Democracy and freedom of speach looks like in the western world.. beating up people and arresting hundreds..

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Because it all comes down to what benefits ME or hurts ME right? You seem to have a pretty simple view on this too. Unfortunately with this massive amount of leaks there's going to be people negatively affected by it from all sides, including the west. Just because this shit has been "secret" for so long doesn't mean it should stay secret. People have every single right to be informed on what the people they elect do behind the scenes and how they run their country. You can't just say "oh this needs to be secret because it's in your best interest. trust me. it's for your own good"...that's usually the first sign of bullshit. The way the West is reacting to this just completely undermines the spread of "freedom of speech" and so called "democracy". Next time China lines up a bunch of reporters in front of a firing squad and says "it's all in the interest of national security and these men and women are traitors" it'll actually be justified right?

OK, so lets release all the documents on Canadian foreign policy decisions and plans for the world to see. Every move you make will be known about by the rest of the world weeks, months or even years.

Also every single thing you do with your allied countries will be public knowledge for the rest of the world. Lets see how many countries are willing to do business with you.

Use your head.

Bad example, everyone loves canadians.

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Originally posted by Lira Out of curiosity, Nou, when did you get such a deep knowledge of how international relations? I mean, I'm sure some of the people here have studied political science, international relations (I know I did) among other relevant fields, and I do know self-study can do wonders... but when you say everyone else is naive, I'd rather believe you've had access to some special information no one of us has ever seen. Is this what happened? If so, do you mind sharing this eye-opening experience with the rest of us?

Its not even that "deep" of knowledge for fucks sake... Its common sense that can be applied from the man on the street to the state.

Secrets need to be kept sometimes to maintain the best state of affairs. If you do not understand that then how do you personally survive in the world? Granted the average persons personal relationships are far more simple than those of entire countries, but still, you do realize that secrecy is important between friends?

Would you go sharing everything your fiance/girlfriend said with the rest of the world? Would you be mad if someone stole your cellphones or got access to your emails and shared them with the rest of the world? Even if there is nothing criminal in there you respect the right to your privacy, and even more important, her privacy?

What if you had vented to a close friend about something your girlfriend did, you know, nothing important, just venting, blowing off steam, you might have even addressed the issue with her directly, but now that information that you were talking to someone else about it is out there (that is a hypothetical based on no knowledge of how YOUR girlfriend would react, just an example). You obviously can see how some harm could be done right?

This whole thing can easily be extrapolated out to nations. Secrecy and confidentiality are important to the function of international relationships. If they are not, please explain how so?

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Originally posted by Moongoose Bad example, everyone loves canadians.

Russians don't, at least in regards to the shit ton of natural gas under the north pole.

Canada, mind telling Russia what your plans are for that? I mean its only fair that they get the drop on you. Maybe they will be nice and tell you what they are going to do!

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Right now countries like Iran and china are laughing at the US. Do people really expect Iran and China to have more freedom of speach and freedom of expression after all of this? I said the same thing during the G20 summit in Toronto. The wold was looking at what Democracy and freedom of speach looks like in the western world.. beating up people and arresting hundreds..

Do you really expect Iran and China to expose their international agendas? No.

Do you feel that there is more free speech in China and Iran than in most western countries? Do you think that China and Iran should have an unfair advantage in knowing what our plans are for them?

The world is a competition people and Assange and his ilk are just muckrakers out there trying to fuck with the random countries they do not like, for whatever reason.

I haven't read this thread so I hope my opinion doesn't support Nou. I also haven't taken the time to read the details of the leaks. That being said based on the history of leaks of this nature they never seem to have much of an effect negative or positive leading to tangible results.

Generally speaking the government involved know full well whats going on the ground in a conflict and the true feelings of their counterparts that are never openly talked about. As long as info disclosed wouldn't blow someone's cover and get them killed in the field, I don't have a problem with it. The only people who are surprised are the citizens who when confronted with their own country duplicated actions, are powerless to do anything or are unwilling.

Prime example of this is when Ellsberg released the Pentagon Papers. Despite a damming report of the unethical and unconstitutional behavior of the Nixon administration in regards to the Vietnam war, nothing came of it and Nixon was re-elected in similar fashion to Bush and the Iraq war. Btw wikileaks doesn't rise to the level of the Pentagon Papers, but its useful to unveil the stuff government routinely hide from their citizens.

Last time wikileaks released documents, I was watching politician/talking head who said something to the effect, there's nothing new or relevant revealed but oh it was terrible this got out and has hurt our security and put lives in danger. To which I had to ask how could something be irrelevant and yet be a terrible breach of security?

Last edited by igottaknow on Dec-07-2010 at 19:13