"What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the inquiring and constructive mind." -Albert Einstein

The relativity principle in connection with the basic Maxwellian equations demands that the mass should be a direct measure of the energy contained in a body; light transfers mass. With radium there should be a noticeable diminution of mass. The idea is amusing and enticing; but whether the Almighty is laughing at it and is leading me up the garden path - that I cannot know." -Albert Einstein

Einstein was one of the greatest scientists ever. He never said "there is no god" as most of you put it. Stating "there is no god" makes as much sense as saying "there is a god" neither of these statements can be proved. It is a matter of faith, period.

I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs. But for what purpose? religion gives hope to many people, the teachings of jesus are about love, forgiveness, understanding. What is so wrong about this? Religion gives people something to look forward too. It gives them morality, not only to god, but to themselves and those who surround them. It makes them better human beings spiritually. How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.
Its sad really, cyprus king with his Che Guevara avatar. Is he someone you look up to? why dont we compare him to jesus shall we, they were both martyrs anyways right? both died for what they believed in. Only difference is communism brings only misery, poverty, and death. But christianity on the otherhand, teaches hope, love and a better life.
you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive. Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless. What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

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Einstein was one of the greatest scientists ever. He never said "there is no god" as most of you put it. Stating "there is no god" makes as much sense as saying "there is a god" neither of these statements can be proved. It is a matter of faith, period.

did you ever stop and wonder that if Christianity did not exist, the theory of relativity may have been discovered 200 years ago? Christians love saying, Anton Lavey, Nietzsche, discovered the error of their ways on their death beds and prayed for Gods forgiveness.

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Einstein It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.

Have a look at diginuts sig for a definition of an apologist. Einstein was never a Christian, most people think he was a deist, but there is evidence claiming that he was an atheist

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I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs. But for what purpose? religion gives hope to many people, the teachings of jesus are about love, forgiveness, understanding. What is so wrong about this? Religion gives people something to look forward too. It gives them morality, not only to god, but to themselves and those who surround them. It makes them better human beings spiritually. How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

"better human beings"? are you implying IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH?

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i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

God is standing right in front of me, we are sitting here together drinking a beer and laughing at your ignorance

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Its sad really, cyprus king with his Che Guevara avatar. Is he someone you look up to? why dont we compare him to jesus shall we, they were both martyrs anyways right? both died for what they believed in. Only difference is communism brings only misery, poverty, and death. But christianity on the otherhand, teaches hope, love and a better life.

I'm sure the innocents involved in the inquisition and the crusades agree with you. Religion in particular Christianity is based on fear, it is similar to stalinist communism in that they had to create a culture of fear to proselytize the masses

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you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive. Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless.

The political forum is renowned for its atheists / theists who question religion. Which means "you guys" came into our forum and tried to make our faith seem meaningless, in which we have given "you guys" pages upon pages of evidence which justifies our beliefs, and "you guys" retort by saying "the evidence of God resides in my personal message bank."

I bet you're a Mormon who goes around knocking on peoples doors and explain to them how meaningless there previous faith is.

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What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

if the price to get into heaven is ignorance and stupidity i'd rather rot in hell. The irony is, i'd find a place full of christians like you, a hell. So is god going to send me to heaven?

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Originally posted by tathi if the price to get into heaven is ignorance and stupidity i'd rather rot in hell. The irony is, i'd find a place full of christians like you, a hell.

bahahahahaha! Best post ever!

*edit*
oops, i misread. I thought it said "if the price to get into heaven is ignorance and stupidity i'd rather rot in hell. The irony is, i'd find a place full of christians like you."

Oh well. Still good. I'm tired. Leave me alone.

ah i like that version better Nico, i'll have to use that next time ;P

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Originally posted by albertoR I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs.

That would seem to be a gross misrepresentation of the current debate, considering how many of us are in fact deists or agnostics and don't necessarily believe that there is no God.

True, we attack religion as an organization, not as a belief. We simply choose to believe what the evidence points to, and nothing more. We don't necessarily believe that there is no God, but we don't believe that there is one. The evidence for a God is no more pronounced than the evidence for a whorehouse down the drain of my kitchen sink, thus, I choose to ignore the claims of religion and believe that there *probably* is no God, since God explains nothing and the evidence doesn't seem to point me in that direction.

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How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

Are you dismissing organized religion as a mere stereotype? Obviously we can't predict the human traits of people who belong to a particular religion, but if these people can honestly claim to be a member of that religion, then we can almost certainly predict the things they believe in, since, in order to be called a member of that religion, they HAVE to believe it.

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i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope?

Why do theists have so much trouble differentiating between a live body and a dead corpse? "I" am not going to be rotting in a coffin. My dead body will have no consciousness. I am not "looking forward" to anything that happens AFTER I'M DEAD! I won't care. It makes no difference. What makes a difference is living THIS live to its fullest, because it is most likely the only time I have to exist. I'd rather enjoy this life than spend it worrying about an upcoming life that might not even really happen.

Aside from which, I've already explained how the concept of an Afterlife is a logical paradox, and is only really possible if you throw logic to the dogs. Man, I had a link to this a while back, I wish I could find it... does anybody else know? There was a whole article about the logical impossibility of an afterlife that articulated the paradox a lot better than I did.

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is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power?

Yes; scientific evidence, or rather, the lack thereof, is also the only thing keeping me from believing that my toilet begs for mercy every time I take a shit in it. It's the same principle in many ways. I choose not to believe in the supernatural when there is no evidence for it. Why should I choose otherwise?

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i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

Most likely I would, since God by any religion is defined as an intangible being. If he could stand in front of me, he would not be God.

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you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive.

Unfortunately, when those same people mount a foolish, silly, and downright childish attempt to make us believe the same things they do just because it's "given them hope", we have little choice.

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Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless. What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

Yeah. Now I see the error of my ways, I'll convert. Not. You can't seriously expect any rationally-minded person to swallow that crock, can you?

And again with the afterlife crap, anyway... learn to understand that a dead body is NOT CONSCIOUS. It's not aware of itself being eaten by maggots. The maggots might as well be eating a chicken fajita. The way you talk is merely a reminder to us rationally-minded people that religious dogma is comprised of little more than a series of scare tactics designed to intimidate people into giving money and following orders in order to avoid events that are otherwise completely beyond their knowledge and control.

Why would any free-thinking person want to put their life and future in the hands of an invisible entity, as opposed to their own hands?

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quote:

Originally posted by albertoR "What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the inquiring and constructive mind." -Albert Einstein The relativity principle in connection with the basic Maxwellian equations demands that the mass should be a direct measure of the energy contained in a body; light transfers mass. With radium there should be a noticeable diminution of mass. The idea is amusing and enticing; but whether the Almighty is laughing at it and is leading me up the garden path - that I cannot know." -Albert Einstein Einstein was one of the greatest scientists ever. He never said "there is no god" as most of you put it. Stating "there is no god" makes as much sense as saying "there is a god" neither of these statements can be proved. It is a matter of faith, period.

If we're going to mine quotes, two can play at that game:

"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him." - Albert Einstein

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." - Albert Einstein

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein

Even if Einstein was a religious person, that proves nothing. What matters is the evidence, not who believes in it.

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I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs.

The same could be said about our resident religionists. Some of them want to change people's beliefs as well.
On the other hand, maybe, just maybe, you could have made an unsupported assertion.

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But for what purpose? religion gives hope to many people, the teachings of jesus are about love, forgiveness, understanding.

FYI, Jesus does not equal religion.



Source: http://www.adherents.com/

Secular Humanism also gives home to many people. Just because something gives hope doesn't mean it is correct. Here we have Secular Humanism, and Christianity, both give hope. But only one (or neither for that matter) can be correct. If you're going to bring up Christian Ethics, then how do you reconcile the way god kills millions of innocent people in the bible? Was god right to murder 40 young boys for laughing at a bald man? Was god right to slaughter the entire population of earth because they were behaving badly?

If I were you, I would avoid the topic of Christian ethics, as your own holy book is riddled with ethically questionable behaviour and teachings.

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What is so wrong about this?

If it were true, and backed up by solid evidence, then there would be nothing wrong with it. But it isn't, plain and simple. Christianity is mind control, and it's teachings are far from morally & ethically justifiable. I suggest you read some of the late Carl Sagan's publications if you want to get an insight into where I'm coming from.

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Religion gives people something to look forward too. It gives them morality, not only to god, but to themselves and those who surround them. It makes them better human beings spiritually. How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

I have no religion, yet I have something to look forward to, what's your point?

As for morality, then I strongly disagree there. Christian morality as portrayed & outlines in the bible is highly questionable, at best. I'm not stereotyping an entire religion based on one person's fault. I'm basing my view of it on it's very own holy book, which they claim is the word of god.

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i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

I have life to look forward to. Humanity gives me hope. Secular Humanism gives me hope. Emotions give me hope. Life gives me hope.

The reason I don't believe in a higher power is because I've yet to see any evidence (scientific or otherwise) that one exists. And what an absurd assertion. If there was any evidence that god existed, of course I would believe. I disbelieve in the existence of god because I have yet to see any evidence. God sitting in front would be something that I view as evidence, and would cause me to convert to whatever religion this god claimed to belong to, so to speak.

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both died for what they believed in.

Prove that Jesus existed.

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Only difference is communism brings only misery, poverty, and death.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it true that there has never been a 'pure' communist state. As far as I know, no country has yet been able to make the jump from Socialism to Communism successfully. If my premise is true, then that invalidates your argument.

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But christianity on the otherhand, teaches hope, love and a better life.

As does Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Secular Humanism and so on. What's your point?

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you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive. Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless.

Uh, this thread was started by a Christian, who came in and made a claim. He provided no evidence to back up the claim that he made. The burden of proof lies with the Christian. He chose to post in the debate forum, he chose to open his beliefs up to scrutiny, as I am doing now.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan.

Dictionary.com definition of meaningless:
- Having no meaning or significance.
I never set out to make his beliefs seem meaningless. Clearly they do have both significance and meaning, as he uses his beliefs to justify discriminating against others (namely homosexual people). If Christianity is the only thing keeping someone alive, then I would strongly urge them to seek the assistance of a medical professional, specifically that of a qualified & registered counsellor.
You've yet to demonstrate that atheism (or secular humanism, for that matter), is meaningless, so you're basing your argument on an unsupported assertion, therefore making it void.

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What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

What will keep me alive, uh, the universe will. Unless I choose to kill myself, die of natural causes, get hit by a car, or get a terminal disease and so on, then I shall stay alive. You've lost me here, what's your point?
If you mean what belief or ethical system I subscribe to, then at the moment desire Utilitarianism & secular humanism.

As for who is losing, simple, the person who's belief is incorrect. I try to live every day the the fullest. I prefer not to waste my life spending time in church, or intensely studying the bible, as this life is all I have. I've got one shot at this, one chance to do something positive with my life, and to help others in need of assistance. If I stuff it up, that's that, no second chances.

Just because somebody has faith that they are going to a better place, doesn't mean that they actually are going to go to a better place. I would much rather spend my time doing something i consider to be worthwhile, or something that I enjoy, than wasting what little time I have on ancient superstitions and irrational beliefs.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Most likely I would, since God by any religion is defined as an intangible being. If he could stand in front of me, he would not be God.

Again I agree fully with your post, but I would just like to mention here that the bible is filled with instances of god walking around and showing his human form to people, as well as talking to them face to face.

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Originally posted by arctic I prefer not to waste my life spending time in church, or intensely studying the bible, as this life is all I have.

You don't know what you're missing! The bible can be so humorous at times!

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 You don't know what you're missing! The bible can be so humorous at times!

Well, I have read it, and (evidently) rejected it, and for the moment I'm content to scan through http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ when I see an Xian say some that isn't quite right (or when I need a good laugh). I'll probably end up reading it again some day, as religion is something that greatly interests me. Come to think of it, what I said there wasn't quite right, there's nothing wrong with studying the bible, as it's a book that millions of people use to justify bigotry & discrimination. Know your enemy, so to speak.

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Originally posted by tathi I bet you're a Mormon who goes around knocking on peoples doors and explain to them how meaningless there previous faith is.

fuck off, you dont know shit about who i am so dont even begin to think you know.

apart from this asshole, i respect everyones opinions. I am not christian, or any other religion. I am agnostic. I choose not to believe. However i do respect people who have a religion and i dont try to destroy their beliefs like if im the fucking anti christ. What pisses me off the most is people who say god dosent exist as if they know. use " in my opinion god, jesus, whatever dosent exist". Sort it out.
thats all i have to say to you.

edit: and yes, for some people IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 I am willing,and I have. Just ask. Only a couple of people PMed me, So people must not want to hear I guess. So why are you complaining? To add,I don't find anything funny about this topic.

I find it ridiculous that you keep repeating that youre faith consists of the reasons of what happened in your life, and yet you're unwilling to give examples in a debate. Granted, you said someone could PM you. But then, they can't discuss what you have PMd back in the discussion, which makes the PMing you completely irrelevant, because this discussion is based on more than just two people.

I'm not laughing at the topic. I just chose to mix some sarcasm into my posts, because I don't approve of giving money to the church instead of directly to charities. I see so much money get wasted on meaningless and useless crap that the church "needs". Now, don't even bother to tell me that I wouldn't know condsidering I'm not Christian/Catholic/etc, because my mother is quite religious and very active in her church. Considering most polish people are quite devoute, all of our friends are also extreemists when it comes to religion. Believe you me, they strongly disapprove of the fact that our beliefs are different, but that's fine with me. I will not be brought down by criticism.

Regardless, all of your posts make regards to your "personal life" rather that concrete examples/evidence. For the sake of the DEBATE, you're going to have to do better than that.

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I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs.

I love these debates! If you're not a "left-winger", you're an athiest. Come on boys, think of better insults! Your generalization here is key.

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do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

You say that we shouldn't attack someone's beliefs, and yet your are doing it right here.... quite contradictory. Do you personally know what an atheist thinks/believes? No, because you are not one. So don't attempt to make such a claim as that without having any sort of knowledge to back it up.

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Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless. What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

Please give an example of what scientist said such a thing please. I would like a direct quote.

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Originally posted by tathi The political forum is renowned for its atheists / theists who question religion. Which means "you guys" came into our forum and tried to make our faith seem meaningless, in which we have given "you guys" pages upon pages of evidence which justifies our beliefs, and "you guys" retort by saying "the evidence of God resides in my personal message bank."

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I bet you're a Mormon who goes around knocking on peoples doors and explain to them how meaningless there previous faith is.

Now this was just a ridiculous statement. Judgemental and full of generalization. If you claim you're a political forum regular, you should know to stray away from such comments or you shall be quoted and proved to be ignorant for making such statements.

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quote:

Originally posted by arctic FYI, Jesus does not equal religion. Prove that Jesus existed. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it true that there has never been a 'pure' communist state. As far as I know, no country has yet been able to make the jump from Socialism to Communism successfully. If my premise is true, then that invalidates your argument. As does Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Secular Humanism and so on. What's your point?

You are right, Jesus does not equal a religion. However they are many religions based on the foundatiuon of his teachings.

No one has proven that Jesus existed yet billions of people still believe without seeing, and they are not asking for proof, so whats your point?

you are right, no PURE communist state has ever existed, notice how i said Communist and not pure communist, there is a difference.

Yes those religions do offer hope , sorry for not including them.