quote:

Originally posted by Polyfrost It's incoming chain messages over sms from gaza everywhere in Europe now...commoners, doctors, security etc. who screams for help and frights for the deaths of their families and hundreds of thousands of lives living on the small gaza strip..messages say like "they've just bombed the grocery marketplace, it's people laying everywhere bleeding on the ground, 80 innocent lives were just taken here"

What did they expect when they elected a terrorist cabal to be their government? They're getting exactly what they asked for. If they don't like it, then they shouldn't have asked for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Polyfrost It's incoming chain messages over sms from gaza everywhere in Europe now...commoners, doctors, security etc. who screams for help and frights for the deaths of their families and hundreds of thousands of lives living on the small gaza strip..messages say like "they've just bombed the grocery marketplace, it's people laying everywhere bleeding on the ground, 80 innocent lives were just taken here" Fuck you Israel! The whole world is against you!

yay SMS!!...the vicious IDF is kiiling everyone! 80 deaths per second! shooting without differentiataion! hurray HAMAS !

seriously, how old are you? gee...
Egypt is with us

___________________
A.K.A Idan

quote:

Originally posted by epsilon1 Egypt is with us

Correction. The corrupt autocratic government of Hosni Mubarak is with you. The people of Egypt are overwhelming against you.

___________________

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Originally posted by Krypton Correction. The corrupt autocratic government of Hosni Mubarak is with you. The people of Egypt are overwhelming against you.

sarcasm my friend...sarcasm.

PS: funny, but true.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2mzb6nd.jpg

___________________
A.K.A Idan

Last edited by epsilon1 on Jan-04-2009 at 23:12

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Did I not acknowledge that? I thought I did.

no. no you didn't. 18 pages and just a lot of moral equivalency and some pretty vile elitism

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The vast amounts of anti-semitism that still affected the populations of France and the UK, even after the horrors of the holocaust were revealed, along with a strong Zionist movement in France headed by Jews that felt it was their holy duty to establish a Jewish state in Palestine that made the creation of Israel possible. Granted the UK did fight for keeping the land of Palestine as one of their colonies, but this was more a desperate attempt at the now rapidly falling empire than anything to do with having or not having a Jewish state. Zionist Jews already in Palestine were waging guerilla warfare against the UK presence and instead of looking bad fighting the "poor, mistreated" jews they handed the land to the UN and let them deal with it. Of course the backing of the US was obviously the keystone to their continued survival, but originally it was a fairly small group of zionist Jews in the US that put a lot of backing behind it. Really the creation of Israel can be seen as a sick marriage between anti-Semitic groups/governments in Europe and the displaced and now radicalized zionist movement that formed before World War II and then gained popular support after it. Blaming the Nazis, that is true. If it weren't for them there would be no Israel. The zionist movements in Europe would have stayed on the fringe and more than likely Palestine would be a mixed state or in some other better situation than it is in now. Hitler was the best thing to happen to the zionist movement. Stalin helped, but Hitler really was the one to bring the radical zionist movement around to the mainstream Jewish communities.

thats a damn fine history lesson Joss, but i'm afraid it just further demostrates my point that 1947 is irrelevant. most Arab governments have accepted certain realities of 1947 a half a century later. the realities of 1967 even are accepted now with pull back from the West Bank and Gaza (Golan Heights notwithstanding).

theres more but i'll finish my thoughts later as i'm at work right now.

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Originally posted by Q5echo no. no you didn't. 18 pages and just a lot of moral equivalency and some pretty vile elitism thats a damn fine history lesson Joss, but i'm afraid it just further demostrates my point that 1947 is irrelevant. most Arab governments have accepted certain realities of 1947 a half a century later. the realities of 1967 even are accepted now with pull back from the West Bank and Gaza (Golan Heights notwithstanding). theres more but i'll finish my thoughts later as i'm at work right now.

It doesn't matter what the Arab governments think. If the people of Palestine feel that they are fighting for what is theirs then they will always fight for it. The same goes for the Jews in Israel. For some, on both sides, a two state solution is not a solution.

Imagine if Texas was given back to the Mexicans by the UN and the US did nothing to stop it (hypothetical). Not the same order as Israel and Palestine, but Texas (I assume) is your home. Would you not fight for your homeland?

Look beyond the radical Islamic overtones of the current violence and you will see that the popular movement against Israel with the normal Palestinians is one of nationalism and fighting for what they consider their homeland. Radical Islam has hijacked this movement.

All of this is tied to 1947 and will never be untied.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Look beyond the radical Islamic overtones of the current violence and you will see that the popular movement against Israel with the normal Palestinians is one of nationalism and fighting for what they consider their homeland. Radical Islam has hijacked this movement.

how is that possible when the radicals were elected and put in power by the majority of those "normal" Palestinians who went to the voting booths? That doesn't help the mutually exclusive argument you're trying to make

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Originally posted by The17sss how is that possible when the radicals were elected and put in power by the majority of those "normal" Palestinians who went to the voting booths? That doesn't help the mutually exclusive argument you're trying to make

Does Hamas present the same goal as a nationalist movement?

Its the same as Nazism, which was an ultra-nationalist movement. Jews were just a common paranoia/dislike/hatred that was easily used to whip the German people into a frenzy and allow Germany to do the things it did.

The same goes for Hamas, they take Israel and make it the common enemy, villify it to extremes and in turn whip the people up so much they are just angry. Israel of course doesn't help either with a lot of their actions.

People are not that smart in groups, if you give them something to easily hate and then make them afraid of it, a determined person/group can do amazingly horrible things with them.

Last edited by Joss Weatherby on Jan-05-2009 at 00:04

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Like I said earlier, this problem wont be solved until the problem no longer exists.

LOL

problems aren't solved without solutions.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby US: "Sup? Oh Jews, yea we hate them too, alright, we'll help. Can we get that Suez Canal while we are at it?"

one trip through brooklyn or in midtown NYC at lunch time would make you think otherwise.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov The real shame in this is that Hamas is still the only organization in Palestine willing to provide basic social services to its people - that's the reason Hamas surpassed the PLO or Fatah in the first place.

i think Israelis could resolve this whole issue by being the most visial force helping palestinians within gaza and the west bank. Instead of providing monetary support for a palestinian authority that will inevitably steal money, the israelis should directly build the necessary infrastructure for the civilians.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby It doesn't matter what the Arab governments think.

apparently and appropriately it does since all the major players in the region are very hands off of the entire situation. which is a reflection of the moral and ideological bankruptcy of Hamas and Iran.

this is a war of perception as much, if not more, as it is a hot war of attrition, and Israel has been losing that aspect of the war since, well, forever. control the perception and the people you are refering to, the extremist groups, non-government entities, clergy and their followers, Palestinian sympathizers all over the world become ad hoc soldiers in that war and the numbers and perception become overwhelming

we end up with this. this thread in particular, where everbody forgets who Hamas and Iran really are and what they are willing and capable of doing in the most horrific and inhuman ways.

if you accept that this has been a neverending war of perception more than a war of attrition then what you have to ask yourself is is the perception able to be changed? of course it can be changed. it might take a while but surely it can be changed. Arab governments don't fight Israel anymore. even some of their proxies have stopped waging war on her. we're left with these assholes and the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jan-05-2009 at 01:33