quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T (i forgot to mention 'disagree via declining to sign his form')

You know, I don't exactly have the data, but as logical as prenuptial agreements are, I would say that they are criminally uncommon.

Just something to think about when considering human nature...

quote:

that's another easy one, you get the money for pregnancy related bureaocracy by taking it from whatever budget is being raped to track down eloping fathers under the current scheme.

Oh, and how much money is that? Do you know for a fact that it is enough? Because I sure don't, but my ignorance in the matter rarely outweighs my doubt.

quote:

the people arguing with you are doing exactly that - questioning the aformentioned "logic".

I think you are trying to derail this into some sort of match where we argue about what we said/didn't say, rather than the topic at hand. You think I really meant that people who question things are "weak"? Were you hurt by this or something? No, it's not logical. Very little of the law actually is. Yes, it's sexist. Yes, it's asymmetrical - good point. What you are suggesting as a resolution has far more potential to be abused though - or at least just as abused as the current system, except by the other gender. Getting people to sign contracts to approve of their guardianship of a child is something I very much doubt you will pull off successfully - even if you did succeed on a level, you would only be able to get cooperation from the class of society that is the least affected by financial support issues anyways. It would fail to benefit the people who actually needed it - a common affect of logical, symmetrical legislation.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

So, if we are to acknowledge the fact a lot of men are only out there for the fun rather than the consequences of making kids, perhaps it would be better off for everyone concerned if we make things like getting a vasectomy cheaper. Government subsidised sterilisation, your choice.
Works on dogs and cats, keeps the amount of stray and unwanted kittens and puppy's down quite effectively.

Who'd object to that?

Put your hand up!

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You know, I don't exactly have the data, but as logical as prenuptial agreements are, I would say that they are criminally uncommon. Just something to think about when considering human nature...

and what you're deriving from this is that pregnency-related agreements would likely be just as rare? suppose they will be - what would that lead to? and why do you feel the result will necessarily be bad?

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Oh, and how much money is that? Do you know for a fact that it is enough? Because I sure don't, but my ignorance in the matter rarely outweighs my doubt.

can't say that i do, but my ignorance in this matter outweighs my doubt.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I think you are trying to derail this into some sort of match where we argue about what we said/didn't say, rather than the topic at hand. You think I really meant that people who question things are "weak"? Were you hurt by this or something? No, it's not logical. Very little of the law actually is. Yes, it's sexist. Yes, it's asymmetrical - good point.

i was just discussing this 'tactic' in the pdd the other day, you should check out the thread in question (it's called The Pie-Man Argument or something like that), in which i explained precisely why i use it.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On What you are suggesting as a resolution has far more potential to be abused though - or at least just as abused as the current system, except by the other gender. Getting people to sign contracts to approve of their guardianship of a child is something I very much doubt you will pull off successfully - even if you did succeed on a level, you would only be able to get cooperation from the class of society that is the least affected by financial support issues anyways. It would fail to benefit the people who actually needed it - a common affect of logical, symmetrical legislation.

it seems you're suggesting that the only people who desire to become fathers are well off. if so, reconsider.

it also seems you're still misunderstanding the sort of agreements being proposed here - their authority does not end with the financial arrangements, and in most cases, they'd be used to 'clinch' parenthood, and largely prevent the whole need for direct financial support.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith So, if we are to acknowledge the fact a lot of men are only out there for the fun rather than the consequences of making kids, perhaps it would be better off for everyone concerned if we make things like getting a vasectomy cheaper. Government subsidised sterilisation, your choice. Works on dogs and cats, keeps the amount of stray and unwanted kittens and puppy's down quite effectively. Who'd object to that? Put your hand up!

I'm pretty sure the home secretary of Japan would have a thing or two to say about that..

___________________
"Wenn du dich zum Untergrund zählst, reicht es nicht, es nur zu sagen. Du musst auch viel graben, um es zu werden."

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith So, if we are to acknowledge the fact a lot of men and women are only out there for the fun rather than the consequences of making kids, perhaps it would be better off for everyone concerned if we make things like getting a vasectomy cheaper. Government subsidised sterilisation, your choice. Works on dogs and cats, keeps the amount of stray and unwanted kittens and puppy's down quite effectively. Who'd object to that? Put your hand up!

*cough*


p.s. i'd have no significant objections to not being able to impregnate as long as everything else keeps fuctioning as it should and i get to keep some seman stored away for use in case i decide to become a father at some point.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Vasectomies are reversible, I'm pretty sure.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Vasectomies are reversible, I'm pretty sure.

so are condoms!

quote:

Originally posted by all-nite-freak so are condoms!

LOL...so wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Sand Leaper I'm pretty sure the home secretary of Japan would have a thing or two to say about that..

Elaborate

Very good, Psy-T has the right idea.
He can have his fun and all the irresponsible behaviour he wants without the repercussions of ending up with someone nailing him down for 18years under 'economic tyranny' for forgetting the condom or her forgetting the pill or whatever.

So, youre of breedin' age son. Congratulations
Go down the government funded sperm bank, make your deposit and then it's off to the doc for a bit of government funded snip and away we go in life. Should you meet a lady one day you want to procreate with, then you go down and collect some of that deposit and gleefully impregnate her.

Accident and irresponsibility insurance taken care of for life.

As for the rest of you who arent going to undertake this kind of insurance policy, sorry, same old rules apply, you make it, you either break it or pay for it.
It is the very least we can do for each other as a species to ensure kids are kept at least clothes, school, housed and fed.
With any luck they won't be arseholes like their parents.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Elaborate

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/as...fic/6309405.stm

___________________
"Wenn du dich zum Untergrund zählst, reicht es nicht, es nur zu sagen. Du musst auch viel graben, um es zu werden."

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Why? He's an insensitive clod I'll give him that but I'm sure he'd be interested in some form of planned pregnacy programs which would benifit the wellbeing and birth rates. No point bringing kids into the world if you can't look after them.

My guess is that ideas towards planned parenthood isn't high up on your list of priorities when your country has more retired people than young people. Particularly not an idea that involves stripping men of their ability to reproduce.

___________________
"Wenn du dich zum Untergrund zählst, reicht es nicht, es nur zu sagen. Du musst auch viel graben, um es zu werden."