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Originally posted by batemanscott haha funnily enough my honest opinion on everything discussed in this thread is 'i don't know what to think' I trust science but also believe in something bigger so if one day we found scientific proof that we built pyramids etc etc i wouldn't be shocked, nor would i if aliens rocked up screaming 'we're actually from tasmania and we built your homo pyramids'.

so you would only believe IF you had SCIENTIFIC proof?

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i think the fact that science believes IT has the only answer to every question disturbs me somewhat..

I agree!

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firstly, imagine a world with no god, no mystical creator of any sort.

Firstly, I cannot imagine a world without God.

Amen.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you didn't answer my question- firstly, imagine a world with no god, no mystical creator of any sort. now, in this reality what questions would be unanswerable by science?

it comes to how we give things meaning: the thing is, it's arguably an evolutionary force, but how we label things, how we interpret things i suppose... i think that rational thought is an alternative to scientific method, and it finds truths that are different, but as interesting. concepts of happiness, ways to live, what we should do when we're here, etc...
metaphysics can't be answered by science, but they do exist, even if they're just concepts. i think it's pretty important.

that's what i meant by creations of the mind: and i think that we give things meaning in an interesting way, that's not explained by science, and which science can't explain:
i don't think the concept of God came from nowhere-- it's impossible, whether you like it or not, to imagine the world without the concept of an external creator 1: it's a massive part of our culture & society (laws & values essentially came from it) 2: i think the idea of a 'mystical creator' is almost a human impulse..

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Originally posted by EgosXII +1 Gumble, do you believe that anything exists beyond science's grasp? that's what i was trying to say: science focuses on certain aspects within our world, and uses certain methods to focus on them. is science, as a study the end of everything: is it flawless, as pck seems to suggest. i agree with bateman: think there's a lot not answered, and what's not answered is pretty open: i don't think science can answer everything, but i think it says it can. thigns beyond science's scope are things like rationality: things that make us think in certain ways, things like philosophy: i know you can argue that thought can be scientifically tested, but i think things like free will will always be a contentious issue (determinism states that all our actions are just a matter of cause & effect, or perhaps it's just certain reactions that make us act, and we have no choice etc also), but at least now, it's impossible to prove, scientifically.. i think that science struggles as a structure for me as well because it's nihilistic: I think meaning can only come from choices, and thought, but these are really unexplained by science.. i guess i'm just saying that truth can exist that has nothing to do with external conditions, and that aren't tangible things... God was the prime example, but just things like thout, and the creation of belief within human mind's is still a mystery... i think the fact that science believes IT has the only answer to every question disturbs me somewhat.. i guess just the unexplained things in the world too: science says it can explain everything, and the extremity of that scares me a little-- i don't really know anything for certain, but that's why i personally keep an open mind, whereas it seems like science just doesn't...

Then you're in the realm of philosophy and we could go on forever with that. I don't think any sensible person will categorically dismiss the absence of a greater power as there is no proof that one doesn't exist. The problem is when people call bullshit on something so obvious and well developed as science and the sole reason they don't believe it because a collection of papers apparently written by a human who was guided by a higher power tells them that it is bullshit and that faith should transcend all the pretty damn empirical evidence in front of us.

I'm moderately religious, less so than before but I'm still very open to a higher power. However, I am SICK AND TIRED of defending staunch relegious people when they start telling me that evolution is bullshit and that we've only been around for like 10000 years when you can find fossils of neanderthals much older than that. What was it Gumble, like 18000 years? (The exact amount escapes me). Anyway, also that the world was created in 7 days when it's clear that the earth is more than 4 billion years old. I mean for fucks sake, how do people deny this?

Reading through Gumbles explanation of evolution actually made me angry. Why? Because it's so simple yet people refuse to believe it and it made me remember an argument from last year with a few people from uni who are very religious. What astounded me was that they do science, microbilogy, molecular biology, immunology etc and yet they don't believe in evolution. WHAT THE FUCK! They can see evolution in front of their eyes with bacteria yet they just say "oh but that's not evolution it's too fast". Every single sensible and let's face it, absolutely perfect answer that I gave them they dismissed without flinching with the most absurd and totally illogical drivel I have ever heard. So much so that I almost lost it. Now these two are friends of mine and I am with them all the time but the fact that they could be in that mind frame yet actually do the same subjects and experience the same things in a lab as me made me lose a lot of respect not only for them but in humanity itself. It's unbelievable how close minded some people can be when there's so much evidence there, yet they dismiss it randomly. It's an absolute joke and hence why it's virtually impossible to argue against them. It just makes you the fool.

I'm not against religion and I don't want to obliterate it like some people do as there are so many benefits to it as well, but it could be so much more if religious zealots actually opened their minds and were able to include science and rational thinking into their daily lives. I mean wow, some people are just unbelievable.

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Last edited by Fledz on May-29-2008 at 09:00

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i think the fact that science believes IT has the only answer to every question disturbs me somewhat..

It doesn't. Whoever tells you that is an idiot.

It attempts to explain as much as possible. When it cannot, it doesn't and you can go and hit the philosophy side of things as much as you want. Science aims to categorically prove something through repeated experiments which reinforce the specific hypothesis. If something comes along to disprove that hypotheses, then a new one is developed and so on. Eventually you get to a point where through the process of trial and error you get a fairly solid hypothesis. Sure, it will NEVER be 100% as that would defeat the purpose of it being a hypothesis, but some are just too damn strong to argue against in reality.

Proving the evolutionary link between animals through countless experiements and specific examples which reinforce the hypothesis is much more believable than a piece of paper, written by a handful of men who were apparently spoken to by God. Where's the proof? If you showed me a video of God speaking to them then I would believe it, but you can't. Never mind that videos didn't exist back then, that's not the point. Say you did. Then you would basically be doing science there as you would be proving a hypothesis through the use of indisputible evidence.

That is the beauty of science. The fact that it can and does intertwine with religious beliefs when needed. Religion however does not work in the opposite way. It disputes and negates everything about science without a shred of factual evidence.

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Originally posted by MiSSyM Firstly, I cannot imagine a world without God. Amen.

thanks for making an excellent point about the difference between religious followers and those governed by reason.

but we do appreciate you popping in so we could stare at your tits.

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Originally posted by EgosXII it comes to how we give things meaning:

are we going to take this discussion seriously or are we going to go on a massive chronic masturbation?

im not sure exactly what you're banging on about, but it is irrelevant to the question.

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Originally posted by EgosXII i think that rational thought is an alternative to scientific method

scientific method and "rational thought" (or reason) are part of the same language. of course science might not be predict whether pkcRAISTLIN will prefer this trance track over another one.

irrelevant.

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Originally posted by EgosXII it's impossible to imagine the world without the concept of an external creator

well you're hamstringing yourself in this conversation then aren't you? "there's a god because i couldn't believe there's not?"

what kind of fvcked up shitty logic is that? *waves at mandi* thanks for those tits mandi

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Originally posted by EgosXII 1: it's a massive part of our culture & society

there are all kinds of things that have been part of our culture that we have shedded. you know, like slavery. or beheading. or having kings to run our countries.

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Originally posted by EgosXII (laws & values essentially came from it)

that is simply not true at all and i wish people would stop saying it.

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Originally posted by EgosXII 2: i think the idea of a 'mystical creator' is almost a human impulse..

haha, we were only discussing this in both the COR and PDD recently and yes, there is certainly some evidence to support that claim. but there is also an impulse to rape and pillage, doesn't mean we have to "go with the flow".

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Originally posted by EgosXII science says it can explain everything

no but it does have a theory or theories for everything

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so yeah, you didnt answer my question.

in a universe without god, what questions concerning the behaviour of that universe would be automatically beyond the reach of all scientific endeavour?

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lol pkthee

I will pray for your soul.

You've always got a mate in Satan

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Originally posted by Lilith You've always got a mate in Satan

Lol, funny how no-one has mentioned that side of all this religion bollocks. How the fuck did 'God' manage all this creation shit when there was an 'underbelly' type red monster copping blowjobs while farting and throwing beer cans at him the whole time. Fuck who would want a God who just wasn't into shit that, imo is quite mad like titties and grog!

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Fucken heaps of mad shit!

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Originally posted by Deeman How the fuck did 'God' manage all this creation shit when there was an 'underbelly' type red monster copping blowjobs while farting and throwing beer cans at him the whole time. Fuck who would want a God who just wasn't into shit that, imo is quite mad like titties and grog!

if you're trying to say satan was around when god was playing with clay or however you want to put it.. then the only thing you've really said is that your extremely ignorant and are probably better off not posting in this thread to avoid looking like a fool.

i pity the foo!

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Originally posted by MiSSyM so you would only believe IF you had SCIENTIFIC proof?

if ur talking about god then my answer is i believe in god and need no 'proof' if ur talking about the pyramids then yeah i would need proof