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Originally posted by Moongoose I'm just watching a live interview with Saashkvili on CNN. That guy doesn't know when to keep quiet. The russians decided to spare him, and the first thing he does when he gets to speak publicly is to attack russians, deny that the georgians started the attack, announce that he will never accept the breakup of georgia and make more outrages claims about racial cleansing. Well at least this time while giving an interview he is isnt standing behind the EU flag as with every interview he did in the alst few days.

that's his job. he's supposed to make them look like the bad guys. he can't admit it's his fault the conflict started because that would show utter incompetence. Being he went to an ivy league law school, i give him the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally posted by Atmos Hey Krpyton, You say you didn't and don't approve of the occupation of Afghanistan which just proves to me that yea you have a characteristic of a neautral "un-brainwahsed" American. One who is not manipulated by the media and sees through the lies. Except you have very little knowledge about what happens when you are actually on the ground. You talk so freely because you have nothing to lose. Truth is there are people like you during every war that just cries about how you are mislead, about how the government is corrupt, about how we are no better than any another. Tell me, are you one of those protestors of the war that raise up their bullshit signs and, like hyporcrites, exercise their freedom to speak while men are actually fighting for it. You may not think that this war directly affects our democracy, but it does. Many nations over the world envy the US, and you should see it as a sign that we are doing something right. I will not even bother with the posts of others.

people envy gangster rappers, that doesn't mean they are doing something right. envy is not a good trait. people envy possessions and positions. People don't care about those whom they envy, they would rather exchange positions with those that are envied. When america regains the reverence once held by other countries towards us, that's when we are doing something right.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Like many NATO and EU officials said, thank god we didn't let them in.

Correct. But the Americans have a completely different point of view.

Goes to show that NATO isn't a homogeneous entity either.

This is what I read about this on Last.fm :

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People of the world, the information, provided by the international mass media is no true. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.08 at 22:00 Georgia attacked South Ossetia, the troops rolled in. At 3:30 08.08.08 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered the city of Tskhinvali, the capital of the South Ossetian Republic. Whole city was shelling by heavy artillery all day long, there were fights with use of tanks and heavy munition, which were used against both ossetic militia and non-combatants. 2000 civillians were killed during Georgian attack. Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening of 08.08.08 for settlement of the conflict and peace conduction in republic and protection of Russian citizens, living on territory of South Ossetia (approx. 80% of South Ossetian population). Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on the opening day of 2008 Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Evident photos and video-materials about the conflict : www.1tvrus.com/ , www.vesti.ru/news

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Originally posted by Atmos Hey Krpyton, You say you didn't and don't approve of the occupation of Afghanistan which just proves to me that yea you have a characteristic of a neautral "un-brainwahsed" American. One who is not manipulated by the media and sees through the lies. Except you have very little knowledge about what happens when you are actually on the ground. You talk so freely because you have nothing to lose. Truth is there are people like you during every war that just cries about how you are mislead, about how the government is corrupt, about how we are no better than any another. Tell me, are you one of those protestors of the war that raise up their bullshit signs and, like hyporcrites, exercise their freedom to speak while men are actually fighting for it. You may not think that this war directly affects our democracy, but it does. Many nations over the world envy the US, and you should see it as a sign that we are doing something right. I will not even bother with the posts of others. PS-Father fought for freedom in Nicaragua. Also Served in Company D, 4th batallion, 31st Infantry regiment Iraq.

Although I agree that the US intervention in Afghanistan is justified, the primary reason for its undertaking was most certainly not spreading freedom and protect human rights. If that were the case, US forces would be in Saudi Arabia now, not in Iraq. Considering that Saudi Arabia is one of the US's biggest allies, any talk about spreading freedom throughout the world is merely propaganda. Spreading more US-friendly regimes would probably be a better description.

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And doesn't spreading US-friendly regimes directly or indirectly affect our democracy and our nation?

I never said anything about spreading democracy. I just meant our occupation in Afghanistan was and is crucial to the stability of that country and the national security of ours, with the Taliban and al-Qaeda looking for safe havens and weak and poor people to manipulate.

Last edited by Atmos on Aug-12-2008 at 15:27

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Originally posted by Atmos And doesn't spreading US-friendly regimes directly or indirectly affect our democracy and our nation? I never said anything about spreading democracy. I just meant our occupation in Afghanistan was and is crucial to the stability of that country and the national security of ours, with the Taliban and al-Qaeda looking for safe havens and weak and poor people to manipulate.

Well, considering that spreading Russia-friendly regimes directly or indirectly affects their democracy and nation, I really don't think you can say anything against the way Putin conducts his agendas. Especially since spreading democracy is not an issue. You can be honest and say that you don't like this action because it interferes with the US interests, not because it harms a "small freedom loving nation", as Mr Saakasvili poetically put it.

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Originally posted by Atmos Hey Krpyton, You say you didn't and don't approve of the occupation of Afghanistan which just proves to me that yea you have a characteristic of a neautral "un-brainwahsed" American. One who is not manipulated by the media and sees through the lies. Except you have very little knowledge about what happens when you are actually on the ground. You talk so freely because you have nothing to lose. Truth is there are people like you during every war that just cries about how you are mislead, about how the government is corrupt, about how we are no better than any another. Tell me, are you one of those protestors of the war that raise up their bullshit signs and, like hyporcrites, exercise their freedom to speak while men are actually fighting for it.

Nice rebuttal..I'm a brainwashed liberal.. Is that all you've got? I made several points, and you didn't answer a single one. If you're just going to rely on personal attacks then we're done here...you've lost..especially with someone who just told all of us Iraq and Al-Qaida were conspiring together to attack us. Or that Saddam was developing a nuclear program..And you have the nerve to call me brainwashed.. The only brainwashed one is you and latinlover, let's not leave him out of this..

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You may not think that this war directly affects our democracy, but it does. Many nations over the world envy the US, and you should see it as a sign that we are doing something right.

Not a single rebuttal to my argumentative points. Hey, a little advice. Don't tell me what I think. You aren't a fucking psychic. I'm sure many nations of world wish they could invade sovereign nations like we did without UN approval, yea, they envy us alright..

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I will not even bother with the posts of others.

Good, I can't wait for your next post.

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PS-Father fought for freedom in Nicaragua. Also Served in Company D, 4th batallion, 31st Infantry regiment Iraq.

*golf clap* you might want to concentrate on the issues instead to tell my I don't sacrifice or I'm not patriotic. You don't know me, or understand my personal views, so kindly fuck off, k?

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Last edited by Krypton on Aug-12-2008 at 18:11

Krypton,

You know why I didn't rebuttal any of your points. Honestly, its because there's more to it than just what you see on the news and on paper.

All your arguments are based on liberal media just like mine are on conservative. We can have an independent party here tell us both we're wrong but they're just words.

Try having your freedoms deprived, your home taken away, your family split up by propoganda, your grandparent killed, and your religion gone to shit...then we'll talk.

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Originally posted by Atmos Krypton, You know why I didn't rebuttal any of your points. Honestly, its because there's more to it than just what you see on the news and on paper.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree. I know enough about debating to know that usually no one is swayed by the others arguments. But I must say, some of the stuff you posted is completely false. Such as your belief Iraq and Al-Qaida we working together to attack the USA. If I see stuff like that, I'm gonna pounce on it immediately. I will never let something like that slide...

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All your arguments are based on liberal media just like mine are on conservative. We can have an independent party here tell us both we're wrong but they're just words.

My arguments are based on my understanding of justice, in international law, and constitutional law. I take a rather pragmatic approach. You are wrong if you believe I make my opinion based on ideology.

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Try having your freedoms deprived, your home taken away, your family split up by propoganda, your grandparent killed, and your religion gone to shit...then we'll talk.

Well, I'm spied on, by both government and corporations. Everything I buy is recorded on servers without my knowledge, and sold. My phone records can be subpoenaed without a warrant. The FBI can get my financial records without my knowledge like they did to 1 million people in Las Vegas. I'm inundated by corporate and government propaganda on a daily basis.

Let's talk...

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Originally posted by Moongoose I'm just watching a live interview with Saashkvili on CNN. That guy doesn't know when to keep quiet. The russians decided to spare him, and the first thing he does when he gets to speak publicly is to attack russians, deny that the georgians started the attack, announce that he will never accept the breakup of georgia and make more outrages claims about racial cleansing. Well at least this time while giving an interview he is isnt standing behind the EU flag as with every interview he did in the alst few days.

Do you have any history of the conflict for the last several years? I've been following in Russian news for quite some time now, starting with Georgia's election of Saakashvili and the "rose revolution". When Shevarnadze was ousted, Russia was not very happy. Since that time the relations with Georgia were very strained and on a fast track downward. Russia made very little secret about it's dislike that a former Soviet aparatchik was kicked out and was replaced by Harvard-educated Yankee appeaser. Make no mistake about it, if they could poison Saakashvili like they tried to Yushenko, they would.

Believe whatever you want but as I said in CORe, Ossetia was just a prop and a nice button to push to (predictably) provoke Georgia into conflict. Attacks on Georgia have been going on for quite some time now, reported in number of (independent) russian media outlets. Georgia countlessly brought misclaneous evidence proving it, only to have it dismissed or downplayed.

When Ukraine followed in Georgia's footsteps and Kyrgizstan shortly thereafter, Russia got little worried. That's why similar attempts at "flower revolutions" tried to materialize in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, they were brutally put down with significant assistance from Russia. Uzbekistan's decision to kick US bases out of it's territory was in no small part motivated by Russia.

The situation with the missle defence in the Czech republic also led to assymetrical response by Russia by flying bombers to Cuba, impeding sanctions against Iran, and doing other "fun" stuff to spite NATO and US. Like it or not, Russia will not allow long-time enemy forces within short striking distance of its borders. It's enough that former republics to the north are home to NATO bases.

How did Russia respond to Baltic republics' desire to join NATO? By breaching their air territory, shutting down planes, trade embargos, and various other nastiness. Not to mention that Russia openly declared that it has re-targeted its nukes at those republics, as they view NATO as a threat to national security.

So, please don't go on saying how Georgia is to blame for what happened to it. Face it - it was yet another conflict Bush administration completely mishandled and bundled for US. I wonder how many more f*ck ups Bush/Chenney team has in store for US before they finally leave the white house? I wouldn't be surprised if there was an election-day bombing of Iran's nuclear facilities.

Don't be so near-sighted. Open your eyes, read up on history. Russia is by no stretch of imagination benign little victim in this.

Oh, and guess what - if China would decide to reclaim Taiwan or Tibet - Russia would be there to back them up and the entire world could do f*ck all. Welcome to the new (old) world order where land-grab is free for all again... as long as you got nukes, resources, and not too lazy.

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