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Originally posted by jerZ07002 in any event, not bad for an engineer. Technically though, its a little harder than that; to prove negligence, one would have to prove: (1) there was a duty owed by the government to the people, (2) that the government was supposed to act under a certain standard of care (reasonable person standard most likely), (3) by not acting in that standard the government breach the duty owed to the people, (4) the government's conduct was the actual cause of the injury, (5) the government should have foreseen that its conduct would cause the injury, and (6) there were damages. It would be difficult to prove that the government's conduct was the actual cause of the injury. btw...intent is not an element of negligence. If the government intended to destroy the buildings it is no longer negligence, it becomes an intentional tort.

the biggest problem i would see is establishing a reasonable standard of care owed by the government as i dont think any government in history has set a great prescedent.....

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp no it isn't the same thing. one is passive negligence while the other is active negligence. ie: intentional tort vs unintentional tort for passive negligence you would have to prove that the parties were A: aware or ought to been aware of the threat or the iminent attack and B: that the parties did not act on that awareness in an effort to prevent those attacks. that is far easier to prove than active negligence. there you would have to prove A: intent to commit those acts and B: prove that they did infact commit those acts and the manner in which they accomplished them. they cannot both happen, its one or the other. its pretty safe to say you won't be able to prove active negligence, your best bet would be to focus on trying to prove passive negligence.

You do realize the ethical implications of passive negligence aren't terribly different from making it happen?

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by Spike As if your distance from the incident makes the event that much more meaningful to you than others who live further away from you. i dunno last time i checked we all live on this little rock floatin' around the galaxy called earth or something. what happened affects everyone on the planet not just people in america, or new jersey god forbid. Yes you may have been closer to the incident but the effects have been felt by many people living much greater distances than you. People have lost so much more than just neighbours

tell me, how many people do you know who died? Did 30 people from your town die on 9/11? do you walk through the world trade center every day worrying about getting lung disease? do you know anyone who lost their job because their office was destroy on 9/11? now you tell me exactly how your experience was more meaningful than mine!

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z You do realize the ethical implications of passive negligence aren't terribly different from making it happen?

true, but the point being that if the gov was passively negligent in 9/11 it does not equate to them planning and carrying out the attacks ie: setting explosives or that ever so illustrious thermate....

aren't governments ethically flawed to begin with??

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp true, but the point being that if the gov was passively negligent in 9/11 it does not equate to them planning and carrying out the attacks ie: setting explosives or that ever so illustrious thermate.... aren't governments ethically flawed to begin with??

Ethically flawed enough to cause the death of 3000+ of it's own citizens? That kind of incompitence should be beyond an acceptable level of tolerance, don't you think?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Ethically flawed enough to cause the death of 3000+ of it's own citizens? That kind of incompitence should be beyond an acceptable level of tolerance, don't you think?

i would agree, but it is still only akin to accesory, it still is not equal to commiting the act, therin lies the difference. but yes if they were passivly negligent in the 9/11 attacks, it would be far beyond the realm of acceptable incompetance.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 tell me, how many people do you know who died? Did 30 people from your town die on 9/11? do you walk through the world trade center every day worrying about getting lung disease? do you know anyone who lost their job because their office was destroy on 9/11? now you tell me exactly how your experience was more meaningful than mine!

I didnt say ME did I, I said others...other people.

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"The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!" - homer

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Originally posted by Spike I didnt say ME did I, I said others...other people.

so tell me how the experience of a russian, chinese, japanese, south african, or thai person was as meaningful. Since geography means nothing, they should all have an experience that is on some level as meaningful as mine, right?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 tell me, how many people do you know who died? Did 30 people from your town die on 9/11? do you walk through the world trade center every day worrying about getting lung disease? do you know anyone who lost their job because their office was destroy on 9/11? now you tell me exactly how your experience was more meaningful than mine!

+1

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http://thesoundofeco.com

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 so tell me how the experience of a russian, chinese, japanese, south african, or thai person was as meaningful. Since geography means nothing, they should all have an experience that is on some level as meaningful as mine, right?

alright how bout this, how fucking old are you? how unbelievably short sighted and arrogant do you have to be to think america is the centre of the universe and people around the world dont get shit on worse than 911 on a daily basis in some places? get the fuck outta here with this I was there bullshit. You ever actually been to war, you had your friends guts spilled on your face? You ever see a dead baby burnt to a crisp like a piece of toast? Why dont you go talk to war veterans and see what they go through. Oh right you dont know squat about what goes on over in iraq because your government doesnt tell you shit. They feed you a bunch a crap about terrorists and you believe them and go over there to murder and terrorize thousands of innocent people. And for what? Freedom? Patriotism? or whatever thats supposed to mean. You are more a slave than you realize, and the furthest thing from being free.

you're probably thinking now why is this jerkoff talking about iraq? Because thats where this conversation will inevitably end. Whats happening in iraq among other things are the byproducts of of what happened on 911. Im talking about whats happening right now and that affects us all

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"The only monster here is the gambling monster that has enslaved your mother! I call him Gamblor, and it's time to snatch your mother from his neon claws!" - homer

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Originally posted by Spike alright how bout this, how fucking old are you? how unbelievably short sighted and arrogant do you have to be to think america is the centre of the universe and people around the world dont get shit on worse than 911 on a daily basis in some places? get the fuck outta here with this I was there bullshit. You ever actually been to war, you had your friends guts spilled on your face? You ever see a dead baby burnt to a crisp like a piece of toast? Why dont you go talk to war veterans and see what they go through. Oh right you dont know squat about what goes on over in iraq because your government doesnt tell you shit. They feed you a bunch a crap about terrorists and you believe them and go over there to murder and terrorize thousands of innocent people. And for what? Freedom? Patriotism? or whatever thats supposed to mean. You are more a slave than you realize, and the furthest thing from being free. you're probably thinking now why is this jerkoff talking about iraq? Because thats where this conversation will inevitably end. Whats happening in iraq among other things are the byproducts of of what happened on 911. Im talking about whats happening right now and that affects us all

no douche bag, i was responding to the claims that i should care more about whether my government covered up the story. to that comment, i responded that i care about as much as anyone on this board because i live near the wtc, work near wtc, and also because the local consequences have effected many facets of my life. then your stupid ass had to make an irrelevant comment.

i wasn't talking about war, collateral consequences of 911, or anything else, so stfu!

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Apr-27-2008 at 18:36

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Originally posted by Spike alright how bout this, how fucking old are you? how unbelievably short sighted and arrogant do you have to be to think america is the centre of the universe and people around the world dont get shit on worse than 911 on a daily basis in some places? get the fuck outta here with this I was there bullshit. You ever actually been to war, you had your friends guts spilled on your face? You ever see a dead baby burnt to a crisp like a piece of toast? Why dont you go talk to war veterans and see what they go through. Oh right you dont know squat about what goes on over in iraq because your government doesnt tell you shit. They feed you a bunch a crap about terrorists and you believe them and go over there to murder and terrorize thousands of innocent people. And for what? Freedom? Patriotism? or whatever thats supposed to mean. You are more a slave than you realize, and the furthest thing from being free. you're probably thinking now why is this jerkoff talking about iraq? Because thats where this conversation will inevitably end. Whats happening in iraq among other things are the byproducts of of what happened on 911. Im talking about whats happening right now and that affects us all

Your post makes absolutely no sense and contains absolutely zero relevance to the discussion.

The genocide in Darfur. I have taken part in rallies and inform myself about the atrocities going on and have tried to inform others. But I cannot say I feel anywhere near the same emotion toward the situation as someone living there or in the area, nor there should be no reason I do so. See.... me talking about Darfur was more relevant to the prior discussion than your (see above) idiotic rant.

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