I think we have to be careful not to describe nature and nurture as two mutually exclusive, dichotemic concepts.

For instance, what we may normally describe as our "natural" innate biological make-up is affected in some way by our environment. The onset of puberty and the timing and quantity of hormones released into our system (particularly important in the case of estrogen/testosterone) at any given time can be demonstrated to be largely affected by the environment we live in. Similarly, the way we interpret the environment we live in can be affected by our biological composition. Two men can have the same up-bringing yet end up with different sexual-orientations, merely because their biological make-up has some say in how these experiences are "interpreted".

If we could point to one gene that all homosexuals have that heterosexuals don't then I think it's a slightly different issue, but like Arbiter, I don't think that sexuality is just one thing we can point to on a strand of DNA, but rather an entire world-view that is shaped by several psychological and biological factors (that partially affect and determine each other in turn). Besides, how would a genetic theory of homosexuality account for, say, homosexual behaviour in otherwise heterosexually oriented prison-mates?

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quote:

Originally posted by Renegade I think we have to be careful not to describe nature and nurture as two mutually exclusive, dichotemic concepts. For instance, what we may normally describe as our "natural" innate biological make-up is affected in some way by our environment. The onset of puberty and the timing and quantity of hormones released into our system (particularly important in the case of estrogen/testosterone) at any given time can be demonstrated to be largely affected by the environment we live in. Similarly, the way we interpret the environment we live in can be affected by our biological composition. Two men can have the same up-bringing yet end up with different sexual-orientations, merely because their biological make-up has some say in how these experiences are "interpreted". If we could point to one gene that all homosexuals have that heterosexuals don't then I think it's a slightly different issue, but like Arbiter, I don't think that sexuality is just one thing we can point to on a strand of DNA, but rather an entire world-view that is shaped by several psychological and biological factors (that partially affect and determine each other in turn). Besides, how would a genetic theory of homosexuality account for, say, homosexual behaviour in otherwise heterosexually oriented prison-mates?

Ok I think that most people would say it's a combination of the two. But when you say that we shouldn't regard nature and nurture as being mutually exclusive, do you think that there are ever instances where they could be regarded as mutually exclusive? If not, then would you say that everyone is born straight with varying levels of predilection towards becoming gay and then the environment takes over from there?

Additionally, what kind of "nurture" is most conducive to homosexuality? Would you say that homosexuality is predominantly induced by physical or mental trauma (abuse, neglect, etc.)? Or would you say that it is mysteriously cultivated by random, regular social interaction?

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by occrider Additionally, what kind of "nurture" is most conducive to homosexuality? Would you say that homosexuality is predominantly induced by physical or mental trauma (abuse, neglect, etc.)? Or would you say that it is mysteriously cultivated by random, regular social interaction?

Man, I had some sources on this, but I lost them. A couple of studies have shown that late birth order is correlated with homosexuality, especially children with many older brothers. This is just a correlation, however. This could mean alot of things. One, in a large family, the father may not be able to give enough attention to all his siblings, especially the younger ones, as there are more siblings to deal with when the boys later in the birth order are young. It can also mean that a young child ends up relating to males much better, admires them, etc... Of course, the mother's body could also be hormonally different after giving birth a couple times.

But these are just hypotheses that I brainstormed about right now. They have found a correlation, but no one knows exactly why. But I do think having a father not really involved in your life adds to the chances. This has been hinted at in a couple of studies, as well. My guess is that in 10 years, we'll have a pretty good idea as to the causes, but for now, the answer eludes us. Especially related to female homosexuality. I barely came across any studies on that.

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Tracks that fuel my dreams:

CM - Dream Universe (Marino's Space Mix)
Illuminatus - Hope (Oliver Lieb Remix)
Virtualmismo - Last Train to Universe
Stefano Libelle - Ascension
Magica - Magica (Ibiza Remixx)

Well, if all this fly stuff is true. Then there is a chance we could "intervene" and stop it at birth right? Is that morally right? Would homosexuality be a disorder again? Would we look really foolish for creating and then defending rights for chemically disabled people? If we can "heal" someone from being a homosexual could we also inflict this condition? Would this create an ultimate weapon of mass destruction? How funny would it be if nations simply stopped producing children and disappeared!!!!!!!!!

hahahha I think ive got my doomsday device all set now.

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I was born gay folks... Although my mom did raise me listening to the indigo girls... (butchy lesbians with a lot of emotion and beautiful music!) yeah... i dont really think about why very much... its just the way it is, and because i dont see anything wrong with it, i dont question it too much.

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer I was born gay folks... Although my mom did raise me listening to the indigo girls... (butchy lesbians with a lot of emotion and beautiful music!) yeah... i dont really think about why very much... its just the way it is, and because i dont see anything wrong with it, i dont question it too much.

If science told u that u were gay becasue of a genetic chemical inbalance and just like the fruit fly's u could be "treated" would u be interested?

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Todays youth have desacrated music with the popification of all generes. FOR SHAME.

MUSIC GURU - 2002.

not at all... i dont think that way.. im here right now.. i always look for reasons in the present..

quote:

Originally posted by trancedfarmer not at all... i dont think that way.. im here right now.. i always look for reasons in the present..

Excellent!!! I've been waiting for someone with first hand knowledege to talk about this issue for a while. So if you were "born" gay, then you obviously think that you were genetically constructed this way correct? In which case, do you view people who are not necessarily born gay but become gay through either abuse, neglect, etc. as being confused individuals that would not achieve their sexual preference through the "standard ubringing" so to speak?

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Retro ...

i dont speak for others... nor do i look for such answers usually... but in this case ill explain what i think.. i dont come at this from any kind of scientific point of view for the most part, cause i more spirtiually oriented.

example: its hard for me to understand how other guys can be so attracted to girls... atleast thats what my body feels. My personal impression of many humans is that many are probably attracted to both sexes... most people that are actually gay will end up coming out because its much more pleasing for them to accept their sexuality as thus... I known i was gay since i was very young... I dont go by statistics or science either, so i think the whole nurturing thing is crap...

but i dont rule anything out... in my case i know ive always been gay. and overall i dont really care about the reasons behind it. besides its not a big part of my life, though Casey wouldnt want me to say that ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Ok I think that most people would say it's a combination of the two. But when you say that we shouldn't regard nature and nurture as being mutually exclusive, do you think that there are ever instances where they could be regarded as mutually exclusive? If not, then would you say that everyone is born straight with varying levels of predilection towards becoming gay and then the environment takes over from there?

I'm too tired to discuss it in depth, but when I say that nature and nurture are not mutually exclusive, what I mean is that yes, while obviously we can identify two different mechanisms operating on the same mind here (parents - nurture - and the biological self - nature), the two mechanisms interact in a sense and are partially determined by each other, and must therefore be regarded - to some extent at least - as part of the same system.

To use the example I gave before, for instance, our very nature can be determined by the way we are nurtured and the way we are nurtured (in both the sense that our parents may nurture us differently depending on our nature, and that this "treatment" can be subconsciously interpreted in different ways by the way we "naturally" are) can be determined by our nature: thus, we can identify two different elements here (nature and nurture) but that is not to say that they're entirely independant from each other or that they are mutually exclusive.

I don't know how much sense that made, but that's the best I can do for now sorry.

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It's more nature than anything - else why would so many gay guys have similar tendancies/mannerisms?

Picture it as a spectrum, on one end you have Gay, the other straight, and in the middle bi - those whose sexuality lies near the centre (whether on the Straight side or the gay side) are more susceptible to having society/experiences influence their ultimate 'preference'

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"In a world of illusion you only see what you feel"

First that research bothers me cause its like saying that homosexuality is something that can be turned on and off....
And wether a person's sexuality is a result of genes, education,the environnement you live in, natural or not...why does it bother ppl so much? Just live your life and let other live theres.



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250th post!

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