quote:

Originally posted by rizen ...but bush said we went to iraq to free the people from saddam and his evil ways. we should free the people of dr congo too

Well if we had a 10 year history of tensions and animosity with the DR Congo we probably would

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Ah ok so it's not mugabe you are talking about. At any rate I read a while back about Ike's attempt to eliminate Lumumba. Although the findings were less conclusive then your source indicates: I would question the objectivity and bias of a news source called geurillanews . Yes the CIA did much in the past to set up dictators. However, I'm not sure if I have a complete grasp of the global situation to really criticize cold war politics. Keep in mind the Soviets were setting up dictators in Eastern Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and Africa in order to expand the Soviet sphere of influence. The American response to avoid global isolation was to establish dictatorships of its own when necessary. Nobody really complained at the time because the mentality was that the only way to fight fire was with fire. It is only now, when security has been achieved and the cold war is over, that people come out to criticize the actions done to win the cold war. I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon just yet. Should we have done nothing in Korea, Vietnam, the middle east, etc. I'm not sure ... I'm just glad that in the end we avoided total war with the Soviet Union. What's important now is that the US wash free all of its affiliations with these regimes and begin a process of removing them from power.

Ahh, I was going to bring up another more reliable source, from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programm...dent/974745.stm

Without question, guerillanews.com is slightly biased (chuckle), though there are some good reads in there. The story about Bechtel, Rumsfield, and Iraq was a great story - a must read about the failed pipeline plans back in the '80's.

Anyways, it's hard for me to understand Cold War philosophy in general. That was really a strange time politically. The mentality of the biggest world powers was just strange to me, esp. when it came to this establishment of dictatorships in order to control and contain the enemy. You'd think they would have seen the consequences of these actions, though they're vision of the future may have been somewhat obscure.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Well if we had a 10 year history of tensions and animosity with the DR Congo we probably would

still needs sorting tho

___________________

w: www.luketerry.com

quote:

Besides don't you guys always complain about the US being the police man of the world? I distinctly remember that attitude following Kosovo.

I am all for the US sending its troops if the US is acting through UN institutions and has a valid reason. I supported the attacks on Afghanistan and to tell you the truth, I am not sorry one bit for those moronic fanatics rotting in Guantanamo bay. On the other side, if there are imperialistic reasons for the sending of troops, if the world community is against sending troops, and if the reasons presented for the attack are obvious lies, then I must say I am against such an endavour.

___________________
1+1=10

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I am all for the US sending its troops if the US is acting through UN institutions and has a valid reason. I supported the attacks on Afghanistan and to tell you the truth, I am not sorry one bit for those moronic fanatics rotting in Guantanamo bay. On the other side, if there are imperialistic reasons for the sending of troops, if the world community is against sending troops, and if the reasons presented for the attack are obvious lies, then I must say I am against such an endavour.

Well said. But then yu get into the following argument. Did the US have a secret agenda for Afghanistan after the war? Were they there to sap it of it's natural resource? Quite possibly yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Revolution Well said. But then yu get into the following argument. Did the US have a secret agenda for Afghanistan after the war? Were they there to sap it of it's natural resource? Quite possibly yes.

What natural resource?

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider What natural resource?

Opiates????





Actually, I have a hippie friend who says that the US gov is propped up by traffic in illegal drugs.......

Who knows?

___________________
http://www.discoboomer.com/forums/

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSaenz Opiates???? Actually, I have a hippie friend who says that the US gov is propped up by traffic in illegal drugs....... Who knows?

Haha yes those theories are great.

Although you gotta wonder that if we survive off of a secret drug trade, why not legalize and tax it? Seems more efficient to me from a business sense

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSaenz Actually, I have a hippie friend who says that the US gov is propped up by traffic in illegal drugs....... Who knows?

Well that was what the Oliver North trial was about wasn't it? The CIA/Regan were propping up Nicaraguan guerilla's with drug money. Could still be going on, I suppose, but I'd want to see some pretty good evidence before I believed that the US still depends on drugs for revenue.

Anyway, Zimbabwe has been an issue for years now, ever since Mugabe starting stealing land from white farmers (who had owned it going back generations) and giving it to black farmers who - through no fault of their own - had no idea about farming. Add in revelations of state-sponsored murder and vigelante groups (who used to break into white farmers houses, murder them if they didn't leave and then torch the place to the ground if necessary) and the world started to take notice. I think it's probably made more headlines in Australia and the UK due to the Commonwealth connection, and the Australian government has been under pressure for a long time to bring up the issue with Mugabe at these large-scale former-Commonwealth-nation meetings that happen from time to time. Sanctions have been opposed against Mugabe, but as with Iraq, they aren't hurting him at all, merely the people on the other end of the scale who can least it. Also, so far as I know, this is the first time that a major opposition has been launched against Mugabe (at both the political and grass-roots level) so we'll have to see what happens.

As for the Congo, well that place has been a mess for years, but it's only in recent months that I was even aware that there was a problem there. I suppose it's selective reporting - most people can't be bothered trying to understand the complex, deep-rooted problems affecting African nations, so the news stations tend not to report it. Zimbabwe tends to get a lot of press, but the Congo - and other nations in bloody turmoil (Uganda, Rwanda etc) - just don't seem to get mentioned. It could be selective racism, it could just be that "yet another" African civil war doesn't merit news these days. Whatever the case, though, the situation throught the continent of Africa is dire, and I feel it's criminal that nothing is being done about it. And it's not as though a solution is beyond us either. World military spending totals $720 billion and if every nation reduced their spending by 10% - or even 5 - I'm sure we'd go a long way to solving at the very least the problems Africa faces with starvation, AIDS and birth control, if not the more deep-rooted political problems.

I dunno. I don't see a solution to any of these problems until people actually wake up and realise what's happening in these sorts of places. It's easy to feel detatched from the problems facing Congo or anywhere else in Africa, but we really shouldn't. If every westerner were forced to live for a week in a remote, starving Somalian village, or a war-torn Rwandan city I'm quite sure we wouldn't be so apathetic to what's happening over there. What's that saying? Out of sight out of mind?

Anyway, just needed to get that off my chest. As for Zimbabwe, well I'd say Mugabe is either going to have to meet these opposition groups over a negatiating table and work something out (which he is unwilling to do) or he's eventually - hard to say when though - going to get ousted the hard way. He's losing control of the people below him (a week of nation-wide strikes has just past, no?) and unless he has the means to bring them into line, no leader can survive in that sort of climate.

But still, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.... :-/

___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

^^ Please excuse the spelling/grammatical errors. I'm ill, I've been up since 2am, I've just gotten back from work and I'm filled to the eyeballs with (legal) drugs. Not overly bothered about going back and editing it to be honest.

___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

quote:

Originally posted by occrider What natural resource?

This one:

quote:

ASHGABAT, Turkmenistan, Oct. 27, 1997 -- Six international companies and the Government of Turkmenistan formed Central Asia Gas Pipeline, Ltd. (CentGas) in formal signing ceremonies here Saturday. The group is developing a project to build a 790-mile (1,271-kilometer) pipeline to link Turkmenistan's abundant proven natural gas reserves with growing markets in Pakistan. The group is also considering an extension of the line to the New Delhi area in India. "This is a truly significant step in the development of this project," said John F. Imle, Jr., president of Unocal Corporation . Unocal was appointed by the Government of Turkmenistan to lead the project development activities and form the gas pipeline consortium. A Unocal subsidiary will serve as development manager for CentGas. "The interest shown by major international companies underscores both the attractiveness of the proposed pipeline and the significant economic benefits it can bring to the region. This project could be the foundation for a new commerce corridor for the region -- often referred to as the Silk Road for the 21st century. The CentGas consortium will initially include the following companies, either directly or through affiliates: Unocal Corporation, 46.5 percent; Delta Oil Company Limited (Saudi Arabia), 15 percent; the Government of Turkmenistan, 7 percent; Indonesia Petroleum, LTD. (INPEX) (Japan), 6.5 percent; ITOCHU Oil Exploration Co., Ltd. (CIECO) (Japan), 6.5 percent; Hyundai Engineering & Construction Co., Ltd. (Korea), 5 percent; and the Crescent Group (Pakistan), 3.5 percent. RAO Gazprom (Russia) has indicated an interest in signing the consortium agreements formalizing a 10 percent share in the project in the near future. The proposed pipeline will carry natural gas from the Dauletabad Field, in southeastern Turkmenistan at a rate of up to 2 billion cubic feet per day (20 billion cubic meters per year). The Dauletabad Field has independently certified reserves of more then 25 trillion cubic feet (708 billion cubic meters). The Government of Turkmenistan has guaranteed deliverability of 25 trillion cubic feet (708 billion cubic meters) of natural gas exclusively for the Central Asia Gas Pipeline. Much or all of this gas is expected to come from the Dauletabad Field. The inaugural memorandum of understanding between the governments of Turkmenistan and Pakistan for the CentGas project was signed in March 1995. "The formation of the consortium is another major milestone achieved in accordance with the requirements of protocols and agreements previously signed with the Governments of Turkmenistan and Pakistan," said Marty Miller, Unocal Corporation vice president responsible for new ventures in Central Asia and Pakistan. Miller pointed out that the project still faces significant economic, political and commercial challenges, such as finalizing mutually acceptable commercial agreements and agreements with transit countries. "This project has exceptionally sound economic fundamentals, given the presence of proven gas reserves in Turkmenistan and the market needs of Pakistan and India. The Dauletabad Field has produced well over 2 billion cubic feet per day in the past and is capable of producing that volume today. With the right development program, the Field will continue to be able to produce natural gas at this rate long into the future. No other import project can provide such volumes of natural gas to these markets at a lower price." The proposed natural gas pipeline would stretch from the Turkmenistan/Afghanistan border in southeastern Turkmenistan to Multan, Pakistan (790 miles, 1,271 kilometers), with a 400-mile (640-kilometer) extension to India under consideration. Estimated cost of the project is US$1.9 billion for the segment to Pakistan and an additional US$600 million for the extension to India. This news release contains forward-looking information, including projections of future business plans and potential capital expenditures. Actual results could differ materially from these projections. CentGas Consortium Members: Unocal Corporation (U.S.), 46.5 percent Founded over 100 years ago, Unocal is one of the world's leading energy resource and project development companies providing regional integrated energy solutions. Unocal has reserves of more than 9.8 trillion cubic feet of natural gas equivalent (1.6 billion barrels of oil equivalent) and major oil and gas production activities in Asia and the U.S. Gulf of Mexico. Delta Oil Company Limited (Saudi Arabia), 15 percent Delta Oil Company Limited, a private Saudi-owned company, was founded by its Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Badr M. Al-Aiban. Mr. Al-Aiban established the original Delta entity in Saudi Arabia in 1978, and its activities have expanded significantly since its inception. Today, Delta and its affiliates comprise a diversified group of companies involved in the energy industry, real estate development, food processing and packaging, soft drink bottling and distribution, agriculture and manufacturing. The company's operations extend to Central Asia, South East Asia and other countries in the Middle East. Delta has developed a number of strategic alliances in the oil and gas industry. As a member of the Azerbaijan International Operating Company (AIOC) and the North Absheron Operating Company Limited (NAOC), Delta and its affiliates are involved in exploring and developing oil fields in Azerbaijan, as well as other Central Asian countries. The Government of Turkmenistan, 7 percent Since declaring its independence from the USSR on October 27, 1991, Turkmenistan has looked forward to increasing the economic strength of the new state. The country has strived to build on its traditions, values and history to form a political and economic system capable of increasing the well-being of its people, and strengthening the sovereignty of Turkmenistan. The leadership of Turkmenistan has met the challenge of reform head on, and has established many channels for swift economic development. As an independent state, Turkmenistan has much to offer to the Central Asian region and the international community. By effectively using its natural resources, continuing on a path of economic reform as can be seen in the agricultural industry, and promoting its economic potential to attract foreign investment, Turkmenistan can be assured of decades of successful economic growth. The government believes that by seeking international investment, technological and management support for its country, Turkmenistan can play a major role as the economic catalyst for the Central Asian region, and join the world leaders in the distribution of oil and gas. Indonesia Petroleum, LTD. (INPEX) (Japan), 6.5 percent Indonesia Petroleum, LTD. (INPEX), a Tokyo-based company, has been engaged in the exploration and development of petroleum resources, mainly in Indonesia, since 1966 in order to ensure a continued stable supply of energy resources to Japan. With its core activity area in Indonesia, INPEX is expanding its activities in East Asia, Oceania, CIS, the Middle East and Africa. INPEX and its subsidiaries are currently producing 280,000 BOEPD equity oil and gas in Indonesia, Australia and UAE. ITOCHU Oil Exploration Co., Ltd. (CIECO) (Japan), 6.5 percent ITOCHU Oil Exploration Co., Ltd. (CIECO) was formed in 1972 and is now involved in the exploration, development and production of hydrocarbons in Indonesia, U.K. North Sea, Australia, Pakistan, CIS Countries, Yemen, Oman and Gabon. CIECO is the core company responsible for all Hydrocarbon Exploration and Production activities within the subsidiaries and associates of ITOCHU Corporation, the largest trading company in Japan. With maximum utilization to ITOCHU's worldwide network, CIECO is well placed to continue to expand its foreign activities in the future. Hyundai Engineering & Construction Co., Ltd. (Korea), 5 percent Hyundai Engineering & Construction Co., Ltd. was established in 1947, and its major role was rebuilding Korea's infrastructure. Growing rapidly during the early 1960s, Hyundai built dams, bridges, buildings and tunnels, as well as industrial plants that were desperately needed. Since it launched into the international market in 1968, Hyundai has taken a place among top global general contractors, with approximately US$32 billion construction orders through 1996. As the core company of Hyundai Business Group, Hyundai has set the pace for the Hyundai Business Group which is now a US$87 billion multi-national conglomerate specializing in engineering and construction, automobiles, shipbuilding, robotics, electronics, petrochemicals, aerospace and trading. The Crescent Group (Pakistan), 3.5 percent The Crescent Group, in business for more than 50 years, is the premier industrial and financial conglomerate in Pakistan. More than 35 independent companies operating across Pakistan form the nucleus of the group and are leaders in textiles, jute, sugar, engineering, steel, investment banking, insurance, leasing and software development. The Crescent Group employs over 15,000 people and contributes to one percent of GNP of the country and over two percent of market capitalization of Pakistan. Strategic alliances have helped position the Crescent Group as a leader in its core businesses, such as textile and textile made-ups. Crescent is in partnership with some of the most well-known corporations from the United States and Europe. The Group puts heavy emphasis on keeping its projects environment-friendly, promotes education, and spends considerably on the development of human talent in safe working conditions. Project Overview International Pipeline Consortium Six international companies and the Government of Turkmenistan are forming an international pipeline consortium, Central Asia Gas Pipeline, Ltd. (CentGas) to develop a natural gas pipeline that will link Turkmenistan's vast natural gas reserves with the growing markets of Pakistan and possibly India. This major new source of fuel will supplement indigenous natural gas supply. An efficient, clean-burning fuel, natural gas can be economically and safely transported by pipeline over long distances, and priced competitively with alternate fuels. The Resource Dauletabad Field is one of the largest gas fields in the world. DeGolyer & MacNaughton, an internationally recognized petroleum engineering firm, has thoroughly evaluated the field's reserves. These evaluations clearly show that the field's resources are adequate for project needs, assuming production rates of roughly 1.5 billion cubic feet of gas per day (15 billion cubic meters of gas per year) for 30 years or more. The Government of Turkmenistan has guaranteed deliverability of 25 trillion cubic feet (709 billion cubic meters) of natural gas exclusively for this project. Much or all of this gas is expected to come from the Dauletabad Field. The Market Forecasts based on reasonable gas purchase, sales price and other assumptions show sufficient demand for the imported gas at prices that support the project's economic viability. Market analyses indicate that Pakistan's electric power generation market will be the main consumer of the imported gas. The Route The 48-inch diameter pipeline will extend 790 miles (1,271 kilometers) from the Afghanistan-Turkmenistan border, generally follow the Herat-to-Kandahar Road through Afghanistan, cross the Pakistan border in the vicinity of Quetta, and terminate in Multan, Pakistan, where it will tie into an existing pipeline system. Turkmenistan will construct a pipeline that will link with the CentGas line at the border and stretch approximately 105 miles (169 kilometers) to the Dauletabad Field. A potential 400-mile (644-kilometer) extension from Multan to New Delhi also is under consideration. Estimated cost of the project is US$1.9 billion for the segment to Pakistan, and an additional US$600 million for the extension to India. Inter-Government Support The project enjoys strong support from the governments and leadership of the three countries directly involved and has also attracted the interest of other countries. Turkmenistan and Pakistan have demonstrated inter-government support through various memorandums of understanding. Regional Benefits The project offers numerous long- and short-term benefits to the region. It will link plentiful supplies of clean-burning natural gas with growing regional markets, employ thousands of local people, foster regional cooperation, and enhance trade, transportation and communication. The development of pipeline-related infrastructure also will create opportunities for economic growth in other industries. In addition to regional advantages, the pipeline offers specific benefits to the countries involved. Turkmenistan will reach new markets with its plentiful gas reserves, while Pakistan gains a reliable source of clean-burning fuel to drive its economic growth. Afghanistan will earn extensive economic benefits from the pipeline, both during construction and over the life of the project. SOURCE: Central Asia Gas Pipeline, Ltd.

The consortium gave up on the pipeline in 1998, due to the taliban expansion. Therefore the talibans indeed have prevented the US from exploiting natural resources in the region.

___________________
1+1=10