quote:

Originally posted by occrider Part of the reason was to bluff the Japanese into thinking that there were more atomic bombs. The idea was to push the Japanese military over the edge and convince them that more atomic bombs would continue to be dropped until they surrendered. Much like the article stated, they were very much so encouraged by that american pilot who told them that the Americans had hundreds of more bombs. [/quoted] Couldn't this have been achieved by dropping a second bomb on a small island for example? Also, it still leaves the question open: what if they called the US's bluff? Iirc the US didn't have a third bomb and it would take weeks if not months to get one. Japan had not surrendered after one, so at the time it was surely plausible she might not surrender after two. Which basically makes it a massive gamble on Japanese lives . Fortunately we know now that the Japanese did surrender after a second, but at the time it was surely a huge gamble and the stakes were massive. [quote]Secondly time was a factor, a hasty surrender of Japan was critical in order to avoid Soviet participation in an invasion of Japan. Do you think the Soviets would have sat on their asses while we blockaded the Japanese? Hell no, just look at the gusto with which they attacked berlin ... we said no thanks to that mess. Additionally there's no indication the Japanese would even surrender if they were starving ... if Truman had sat on his ass would he have been critisized for allowing the entire population to starve instead of ending the war with the atomic bombs?

I accept that time was a factor. However, I'm not entirely convinced dropping not one but two atom bombs was the only option.

"there's no indication the Japanese would even surrender if they were starving" - you can use this justification against the second bomb as well. They'd already resisted one.

quote:

Lastly, this is no Vietnam, Korea, Gulf war, war on terror, or anything close to what we've seen or experienced. We're talking about two countries engaged in total war.

Indeed, but it's no Eastern front either. The Russians had just lost over 20 million (some historians now say nearer 30 million) men on the eastern front. To put that into perspective, the US lost 300,000 men in the whole war. Assuming Japan was blockaded, what could the Russians do? They were in no position to wage war on their allies.

quote:

It is not the responsibility of the parties involved to give each other time to consider surrendering ... or to not use a bomb because it's too big, a rifle because it's too effective, a jet airplane that can murder bombers, etc. Every side engaged in unrestricted submarine warfare, every side strategically bombed, the Germans used their latest rocketry technology to launch V2s into England, the Japanese utilized kamikazee attacks, the Brits firebombed German cities, the Americans annihilated the Japanese civilian and military shipping industry .... this is not the same type of war any of us is familiar with, and it's ridiculous to look back with the mentality we have today to critisize some of the decisions made by wartime leaders back then. After losing 300,000 casualties by 1945, Truman would have been impeached if he didn't opt to save American lives.

You neglect to mention the fact that the war in Europe was over. The atom bomb brought warfare to a whole new level, one that had never before and has never since occurred. You say it's "ridiculous to look back with the mentality we have today", what do you mean by that? Was there a time when dropping atom bombs was normal?


PS. My viewpoint is not as against the bombings as you might think. Rather, I'm not (yet?) entirely convinced that there was no other option. Until I'm convinced unequivocally that there was absolutely no feasible alternative, my misgivings will remain. Not that any of it matters of course.

Last edited by evil_bastard on Aug-07-2003 at 16:09

quote:

Originally posted by evil_bastard I accept that time was a factor. However, I'm not entirely convinced dropping not one but two atom bombs was the only option. "there's no indication the Japanese would even surrender if they were starving" - you can use this justification against the second bomb as well. They'd already resisted one.

So what indication was there that they would have surrendered after the first bomb? There was very little radio traffic after the first bomb blast that indicated a heartfelt desire to surrender. Certainly the doves in the civilian apparatus were calling for a surrender, however, military radio traffic indicated that they were still resistant to surrender. In 3 days they had ample to time to assess the situation and make diplomatic overtures to the allies for peace. They chose to remain adament. Once again, I don't think one can attribute blame to the allies for the Japanese failure to surrender.

quote:

Indeed, but it's no Eastern front either. The Russians had just lost over 20 million (some historians now say nearer 30 million) men on the eastern front. To put that into perspective, the US lost 300,000 men in the whole war. Assuming Japan was blockaded, what could the Russians do? They were in no position to wage war on their allies.

" In April 1945, the Soviets abrogated the Neutrality
Pact and commenced a massive redeployment effort which
doubled the Soviet forces in the Far East to 80 divisions.
During the months of May-July 1945, more than 40 infantry,
tank and mechanized divisions plus artillery and combat
support units were transferred from the European theater to
the Far East. [12-37] This monumental effort required
maximum utilization of the Trans-Siberian railroad and
136,000 railroad car loads to move these assault units to
the Far Eastern border areas. [12-37] During the peak troop
redeployments in June and July, an average of 22-30 trains
per day moved Russian units under strict secrecy. [15-159]

Surprise was the essential element in the Soviet
offensive plan. [12-37] The Russians successfully deployed
30 divisions to western Manchuria without Japanese
awareness. [10-1] Deception and surprise was achieved by
heavy reliance upon night movement, utilization of assembly
areas far removed from the border and simple but strict
measures such as instructing senior Soviet officers to not
wear rank insignia and to use assumed names.[10-1] The 6th
Guards Tank Army left all tanks, self-propelled artillery
and vehicles behind in Czechoslovakia and picked up new
equipment manufactured in Soviet Ural factories. [7-52]
This extraordinary effort resulted in the Soviet Union's
ability to field a force in the Far East comprised of 11
combined-arms armies, one tank army and three air armies.
Thus, without discovery by the Japanese at the start of war
with Japan, the Russian Army fielded 1,577,725 men, 26,137
guns and mortars, and 5,556 tanks and self-propelled
artillery pieces. [9-62] The Air Force possessed 3,800
aircraft while the Soviet Navy (Pacific Fleet and Amur River
flotilla) had distinct superiority on the seas (600 fighting
ships as touted by Gorelov) and an additional 1500 A/C. [l2-
38] This vast array of men and arms gave the Russians a
2.2:1 ratio advantage in men, 4.8:1 in artillery and tanks
and a 2:1 advantage in aircraft. [10-29]"

Never doubt the capabilities of the Red Army in 1945 ... many Germans surrendered to the Americans/Brits expecting to pick up their weapons once again to fight the Soviets who they thought were going to steamroll through western Europe. Oh and the Americans were only able to generate 69 divisions in the European theater of operations by 1945 ... keep that in mind when you consider the 80 soviet divisions far east asia alone .

quote:

You neglect to mention the fact that the war in Europe was over. The atom bomb brought warfare to a whole new level, one that had never before and has never since occurred. You say it's "ridiculous to look back with the mentality we have today", what do you mean by that? Was there a time when dropping atom bombs was normal?

I meant that in our mentality and understanding of limited wars as we've experienced during our lifetime, we fail to understand the full concept of total war and the means with which nations fight them, economically and militarily. Do you think unrestricted submarine warfare would last 5 minutes in the 21st century? How about strategic bombing? Sure we can look back today and wax eloquentely about the horrible actions committed by our "immoral" leaders back then, but then I don't think we understand what it's like to face a 10 million man army. I don't think we understand what it's like to fight for the survival of your people and ensure victory without losing another 5000, 10000, or 50000 lives. I don't think we understand what it's like to completely gear an economy towards the business of war. It's sad, but in the concept of total war, there really are no "innocent" civilians. Every single man contributes to the war effort ... every single woman and children contribute towards the future of that war effort. Hitler understood this, Stalin understood this, and Churchill and FDR understood this concept. Certainly some restraint was applied, however it was implicit that all's fair in love and war. Btw, what did you think of Churchill's "revenge" for Coventry? What do you think of Britain's decision to bomb at night while the Americans bombed during the day? You do know what the implications of that decision were don't you? I simply don't think we have a good grasp of what things were like back then when we criticize from the safety of the world we live in today.

quote:

PS. My viewpoint is not as against the bombings as you might think. Rather, I have my doubts and my cynicisms, and I'm not (yet?) entirely convinced that there was no other option.

I always welcome a healthy debate . And I think that there could have been other options. The Japanese were tentatively talking with the SOviets about surrender. Analysts say today that the Japanese might have surrendered without the bombings. Perhaps if the Americans had removed the unconditional surrender clause the Japanese hawks would have been more accepting of surrender (something of which I'm adametely opposed to btw). Given a few more months maybe the Japanese would have accepted their fate. However, notice that everything I've said above has an if, maybe, perhaps, could in front of it. Man it's easy making decisions 57 years after the fact.

___________________
Retro ...

as usual great article and great commentary.. I personally believe that many more lives would have been taken if the bombs were not dropped.

___________________
http://www.travelninja.com
------------------------------------

nice article occrider, as others mentioned...nice to see the japanese view point.

you also mentioned the fire bombings of tokyo, if n e body has ever seen pictures of the incendiary bombs vs atomic bomb damage they are remarkably almost identical. fire bombs were just as devastating to japanese cities (in the short term) because buildings were compromised heavily of wood and paper.

as well, japanese soldiers were fanatically, kamikaze pilots and battles in the south pacific illustrate there fanaticism.

perhaps the americans were a little selfish in dropping the bombs, they most likely wanted to save the lives of an estimated 6,000,000 soldiers needed to take japan, but indirectly the also helped save an equal amount if not (more realistically) double to quadruple that (the 6,000,000) of japanese soldiers and civilian lives.

justifiable...perhaps, but ugly none the less.

___________________


You need people like me!!! You need people like me so you can point your fucking fingers, and say 'that's the bad guy!' So, what dat make you? Good? You're not good; you just know how to hide. Howda lie. Me, I don't have that problem.

Help Fight Disease TA United Research Team

I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread, The fact that the US had only 2 nukes at the time and it would take something like a year to produce more. Likewise if nuking an island failed to get a surrender out of the Japanese we would be SOL, and a costly convential war would have happened.

quote:

Originally posted by Rupert I would just add two things 1) the Japanese had a well developed chemical and biological weapons program which they used on the Chinese population for which no Japanese commanders were held accountable because they were given immunity by the USA in exchange for providing their secrets. All that stuff that the Nazis did in the camps the Japanese army did as well on the Chinese. Japanese scientists would develop germ cocktails which they would use to poison the water supply killing and infecting many, many thousands. 2) the decision to drop the atom bomb on Japan should not be taken out of context of the larger US diplomatic agenda. The USA was partially motivated by a desire to check Soviet expansion in Europe. At the Potsdam conference, Truman mentioned to Stalin that they had a new devastating weapon which they were going to use on Japan (the subtext being if you push things too far in Europe we will use this weapon on you). Of course this had little impact on Stalin whose spies on the Manhattan project had already provided a great deal of information to the Soviet Union. Trumans decision to use nuclear weapons and his motivation is covered very well in his biography Truman by MacCullogh

Great points, Rupert. I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by evil_bastard I accept that time was a factor. However, I'm not entirely convinced dropping not one but two atom bombs was the only option. "there's no indication the Japanese would even surrender if they were starving" - you can use this justification against the second bomb as well. They'd already resisted one. Indeed, but it's no Eastern front either. The Russians had just lost over 20 million (some historians now say nearer 30 million) men on the eastern front. To put that into perspective, the US lost 300,000 men in the whole war. Assuming Japan was blockaded, what could the Russians do? They were in no position to wage war on their allies. You neglect to mention the fact that the war in Europe was over. The atom bomb brought warfare to a whole new level, one that had never before and has never since occurred. You say it's "ridiculous to look back with the mentality we have today", what do you mean by that? Was there a time when dropping atom bombs was normal? PS. My viewpoint is not as against the bombings as you might think. Rather, I'm not (yet?) entirely convinced that there was no other option. Until I'm convinced unequivocally that there was absolutely no feasible alternative, my misgivings will remain. Not that any of it matters of course.

Well, unlike you, the people who made the decision to use the bomb didn't have the luxury of having misgivings. I don't think you should lose too much sleep over this one.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider So what indication was there that they would have surrendered after the first bomb? There was very little radio traffic after the first bomb blast that indicated a heartfelt desire to surrender. Certainly the doves in the civilian apparatus were calling for a surrender, however, military radio traffic indicated that they were still resistant to surrender. In 3 days they had ample to time to assess the situation and make diplomatic overtures to the allies for peace. They chose to remain adament. Once again, I don't think one can attribute blame to the allies for the Japanese failure to surrender.

I'm not attributing blame to anyone, I'm merely posing the question: if they didn't surrender after one, what made Truman so sure they'd surrender after two? Surely this was a much bigger gamble than some people make out.

quote:

" In April 1945, the Soviets abrogated the Neutrality Pact and commenced a massive redeployment effort which doubled the Soviet forces in the Far East to 80 divisions. During the months of May-July 1945, more than 40 infantry, tank and mechanized divisions plus artillery and combat support units were transferred from the European theater to the Far East. [12-37] This monumental effort required maximum utilization of the Trans-Siberian railroad and 136,000 railroad car loads to move these assault units to the Far Eastern border areas. [12-37] During the peak troop redeployments in June and July, an average of 22-30 trains per day moved Russian units under strict secrecy. [15-159] Surprise was the essential element in the Soviet offensive plan. [12-37] The Russians successfully deployed 30 divisions to western Manchuria without Japanese awareness. [10-1] Deception and surprise was achieved by heavy reliance upon night movement, utilization of assembly areas far removed from the border and simple but strict measures such as instructing senior Soviet officers to not wear rank insignia and to use assumed names.[10-1] The 6th Guards Tank Army left all tanks, self-propelled artillery and vehicles behind in Czechoslovakia and picked up new equipment manufactured in Soviet Ural factories. [7-52] This extraordinary effort resulted in the Soviet Union's ability to field a force in the Far East comprised of 11 combined-arms armies, one tank army and three air armies. Thus, without discovery by the Japanese at the start of war with Japan, the Russian Army fielded 1,577,725 men, 26,137 guns and mortars, and 5,556 tanks and self-propelled artillery pieces. [9-62] The Air Force possessed 3,800 aircraft while the Soviet Navy (Pacific Fleet and Amur River flotilla) had distinct superiority on the seas (600 fighting ships as touted by Gorelov) and an additional 1500 A/C. [l2- 38] This vast array of men and arms gave the Russians a 2.2:1 ratio advantage in men, 4.8:1 in artillery and tanks and a 2:1 advantage in aircraft. [10-29]" Never doubt the capabilities of the Red Army in 1945 ... many Germans surrendered to the Americans/Brits expecting to pick up their weapons once again to fight the Soviets who they thought were going to steamroll through western Europe. Oh and the Americans were only able to generate 69 divisions in the European theater of operations by 1945 ... keep that in mind when you consider the 80 soviet divisions far east asia alone .

Point taken, this does explain why time was so important. There were obviously numerous simultaneous agendas in dropping the bombs, as is the case with any major political decision.

quote:

I meant that in our mentality and understanding of limited wars as we've experienced during our lifetime, we fail to understand the full concept of total war and the means with which nations fight them, economically and militarily. Do you think unrestricted submarine warfare would last 5 minutes in the 21st century? How about strategic bombing? Sure we can look back today and wax eloquentely about the horrible actions committed by our "immoral" leaders back then, but then I don't think we understand what it's like to face a 10 million man army. I don't think we understand what it's like to fight for the survival of your people and ensure victory without losing another 5000, 10000, or 50000 lives. I don't think we understand what it's like to completely gear an economy towards the business of war. It's sad, but in the concept of total war, there really are no "innocent" civilians. Every single man contributes to the war effort ... every single woman and children contribute towards the future of that war effort. Hitler understood this, Stalin understood this, and Churchill and FDR understood this concept. Certainly some restraint was applied, however it was implicit that all's fair in love and war. Btw, what did you think of Churchill's "revenge" for Coventry? What do you think of Britain's decision to bomb at night while the Americans bombed during the day? You do know what the implications of that decision were don't you? I simply don't think we have a good grasp of what things were like back then when we criticize from the safety of the world we live in today.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but even by the standards of world war two the atom bomb was a massive technological advance, probably far bigger than any other.

quote:

I always welcome a healthy debate . And I think that there could have been other options. The Japanese were tentatively talking with the SOviets about surrender. Analysts say today that the Japanese might have surrendered without the bombings. Perhaps if the Americans had removed the unconditional surrender clause the Japanese hawks would have been more accepting of surrender (something of which I'm adametely opposed to btw). Given a few more months maybe the Japanese would have accepted their fate. However, notice that everything I've said above has an if, maybe, perhaps, could in front of it. Man it's easy making decisions 57 years after the fact.

I don't doubt that the easiest decision, politically, was to drop the bombs. But as I said above that too must have had it's own ifs and perhaps. They had two bombs with which to end the war quickly, one had just been dropped to no success. That meant everything hinged on the second. If they still didn't surrender it would have put Truman in an incredibly difficult decision and possibly have raised the stakes.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Well, unlike you, the people who made the decision to use the bomb didn't have the luxury of having misgivings. I don't think you should lose too much sleep over this one.

We're in the middle of a heatwave here, so getting sleep is near impossible anyway