quote:

Originally posted by ktw 'Red Submarine', can build you a custom PC using , Low hum Motherboards / fans and hard-drives, as well as P.C's consisting of 4 GB or more of ram!

Currently you cant build a PC with any more than 4gb of ram, has to do with the 32 bit architecture of the processors being used, not to mention most motherboards short of a server-setup can't hold 4gb of ram.
However, the G5 is 64-bit and therefore it can break 4gb all the way up to 8gb of ram, which im sure you will see in all pro-tools studios very soon.
Also money wise, if you were to set up a PC with the fastest intel processor, a ton of ram, and all the other stuff you would need to make it a good studio computer, it would still cost more than the new G5 dual 2ghz which is only $2999 (unless you want that 8gb of ram, in which case you add $4950).

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sorry man, have to disagree! U CAN build a studio standard PC for less that a MAC G5. Bearing in mind that $2999 doesn't include any software or external hardware.

Adding pro-tools to that G5 system would crank it up another few hundred pounds even with the cheapest m-box hardware.


In an ideal world, i think everyone would have a mac G5 Duel 2Ghz with 8 Gb of ram and a full pro-tools setup, but in real life, its just a little way round the corner..............ah.


Regards


KTW

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Well you can disagree, but im saying go price out a PC with something like a 3.06ghz intel P4 and a gig of ram, then add a dual monitor video card and audio, now go look at even the base mac G5 which is already faster than the PC i just mentioned, and you're gonna spend less. Ignore the cost of pro-tools because although its one of the best its not the only one out there, and you can get the same sequencer software for a mac as a pc, cubase excluded. And the cost of m-audio is gonna be the same for both, find equal speed and power in a PC and you're gonna pay more.

-Dan-

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quote:

Originally posted by danieldavid Currently you cant build a PC with any more than 4gb of ram, has to do with the 32 bit architecture of the processors being used, not to mention most motherboards short of a server-setup can't hold 4gb of ram. However, the G5 is 64-bit and therefore it can break 4gb all the way up to 8gb of ram, which im sure you will see in all pro-tools studios very soon. Also money wise, if you were to set up a PC with the fastest intel processor, a ton of ram, and all the other stuff you would need to make it a good studio computer, it would still cost more than the new G5 dual 2ghz which is only $2999 (unless you want that 8gb of ram, in which case you add $4950).

are u living under a rock?

there are currently 4 PC cpus with 64-bit architecture, 2 from Intel and 2 from AMD.

AMD-64, AMD OPTERON, Intel Titanium and Titanium 2.

Besides, there are many MB (from TYAN) that support from 1,2,4 up to 16 cpus on 1 boards for 32 bit and up to 12 GB of DDR.

The new 64 bit PC machines have no memory limit and already can use the 533 Mhz DDR, Mac is still stuck on 333 Mhz RAM, and all 64-bit PC machines are 1,2 ,4 and 8 way ready (# of cpus).

PCs can smoke the hell out of any MAC.

P.S. I own a few PCs and a dual G4 (so don't say I never used a mac).

quote:

Originally posted by danieldavid Currently you cant build a PC with any more than 4gb of ram, has to do with the 32 bit architecture of the processors being used, not to mention most motherboards short of a server-setup can't hold 4gb of ram.

Have to denote you there.... You can adress up to 2^36 bits of memory that will be 64 GB or something...
Ok, you need a quite new motherboard for Athlon or P4 and win2k/winXp, but no limit then...

I´m using a PC (Athlon 2200+) and have no isues with latency or not enought tracks in my sequencer (Logic 5.2).. so why pay more money then you have to?

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B a s e F o r c e
Triumphe de l´amour(New Remix)
2 step up (New Track)

quote:

Originally posted by baseforce Have to denote you there.... You can adress up to 2^36 bits of memory that will be 64 GB or something...

no, u are wrong, 32-bit arch can only handle up to 4 GB of ram, but many TYAN boards for dual-4 way computers can handle up to 12 GB.

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Originally posted by AZCA no, u are wrong, 32-bit arch can only handle up to 4 GB of ram, but many TYAN boards for dual-4 way computers can handle up to 12 GB.

Ok, and tell me where in the system that limit is? As you now, this day´s a modern operating system is using Virtual memory...(can you adress more than 4GB with DISK swapping?? Yes! with xp/2k/linux/unix/solaris et.c.)
This means you have no limits in the operatingsystem....
The Intel X86 standard (from P3 and forward) supports 36 bits for addressing the memory... I hope I don´t have to send you the intel architechure manual, but I know what i´m taking about...

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B a s e F o r c e
Triumphe de l´amour(New Remix)
2 step up (New Track)

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Originally posted by baseforce Ok, and tell me where in the system that limit is? As you now, this day´s a modern operating system is using Virtual memory...(can you adress more than 4GB with DISK swapping?? Yes! with xp/2k/linux/unix/solaris et.c.) This means you have no limits in the operatingsystem.... The Intel X86 standard (from P3 and forward) supports 36 bits for addressing the memory... I hope I don´t have to send you the intel architechure manual, but I know what i´m taking about...

we are talking about PHYSICAL MEMORY.

AND WINDOWS, any version, besides the server ones, ARE LIMITED TO 4 GB OF virtual memory as well.

36-bit addressing? what????

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Originally posted by AZCA we are talking about PHYSICAL MEMORY. AND WINDOWS, any version, besides the server ones, ARE LIMITED TO 4 GB OF virtual memory as well. 36-bit addressing? what????

You can read it for yourself...
http://developer.intel.com/design/p...ls/24547012.pdf

Check the three first lines in section 3.3(Memory organisation)

I hate to tell you but I told you so..
The restrictions lies in how you map the memory with VIRTUAL MEMORY! and thats an isue for the OS not for the Processorfamily (PC)
and I told you that WinXP/Win2k fully supports addressing 2^36 bites of ram..

___________________
B a s e F o r c e
Triumphe de l´amour(New Remix)
2 step up (New Track)

quote:

Originally posted by baseforce You can read it for yourself... http://developer.intel.com/design/p...ls/24547012.pdf Check the three first lines in section 3.3(Memory organisation) I hate to tell you but I told you so.. The restrictions lies in how you map the memory with VIRTUAL MEMORY! and thats an isue for the OS not for the Processorfamily (PC) and I told you that WinXP/Win2k fully supports addressing 2^36 bites of ram..

u are so wrong, read it careful, that's the address space, not the amount of physical memory.

Besides, cpu does not control the physical memory and has nothing to do with it, all memory transactions are handled by North Bridge Chipset on the motherboard.

32-bit PCs can only use 4GB of memory. Any more than that requires the use of virtual memory on the hard drive, which is 40 times slower than using RAM. The new Power Mac G5 can offer up to 8GB of RAM thanks to the 64-bit G5.
To repeat: 40 times faster. Theoretically, the 64-bit data paths let the Power PC G5 access up to 4 terabytes of physical memory. Impractical now, maybe, but the Power PC G5 architecture allows for plenty of growth well into the future.
-From the apple website

In essence, you can only use 4gb of ram on any one 32-bit processor, even hyper-threading doesn't allow more than 4gb. That is 4gb of physical memory, not virtual memory, and as apple says, virtual memory is 40 times slower! So who cares how much you can disk swap when a G5 can do it all with physical memory, the only reason the mac stops at 8gb is because their motherboard doesnt have any more room, like they mention they could use 4 TERABYTES of physical memory if they wanted to.

I don't know what the hell 36-bit addressing is, but according to that intel spec you are talking about 2^36 (not 36 bit) physical address ranges. Also it only addresses memory in 8kb sectors, so thats 8gb of ram that can actually be addressed. Also, operating systems use the intel memory managment which is the reason it can only use 4gb, because it addresses in 64kb clusters.

Also the G5 uses PC3200 ram which runs at 400mhz, not 333mhz. Additionally the frontside bus on the G5 is 1ghz PER CPU, how fast is it on a PC???

And to Azca about living under a rock - I am talking about a personal computer here! Yes there are other 64 bit processors, not just the AMD and Intels you mention, but Sun Microsystems and IBM has had them for many years, and they are primarily used in servers, because servers often run unix which is the only OS derivative that can handle it, windows doesnt know what the hell 64-bit architecture is. And I run a PC so don't think i dont know what im talking about.

But this ultimately goes back to what baseforce said, why spend more money than you have to if what you got works. And thats completely right, if you can run everything you need on an AMD 2200 that cost $1000 why drop $3000 for a G5. I was just trying to say that for $3000 you get more out of a G5 than you can get out of a PC at the same price.

I know I'll be getting replies on this one

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quote:

Originally posted by danieldavid Also the G5 uses PC3200 ram which runs at 400mhz, not 333mhz. Additionally the frontside bus on the G5 is 1ghz PER CPU, how fast is it on a PC???

New Intel P4 is officially 800 Mhz FSB, but it has been proven by nearly everyone who bought such a P4, that it is overclockable (the FSB) to 1200 Mhz very easily and I have tried it and did it myself as well. New P4 can easily jump up to 3600 Mhz with 512 L2 and 1200 Mhz FSB. + it supports the 533 Mhz DDR and new chipsets for DDR-II to come very soon.

quote:

And to Azca about living under a rock - I am talking about a personal computer here! Yes there are other 64 bit processors, not just the AMD and Intels you mention, but Sun Microsystems and IBM has had them for many years, and they are primarily used in servers, because servers often run unix which is the only OS derivative that can handle it, windows doesnt know what the hell 64-bit architecture is. And I run a PC so don't think i dont know what im talking about.

Windows 2003 Server officially supports 64-bit cpus + there is a 64-bit version of Windows XP (still Beta), but very soon to be released, will be called Windows 64 and optimized for AMD Opteron 64-bit.

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But this ultimately goes back to what baseforce said, why spend more money than you have to if what you got works. And thats completely right, if you can run everything you need on an AMD 2200 that cost $1000 why drop $3000 for a G5. I was just trying to say that for $3000 you get more out of a G5 than you can get out of a PC at the same price.

for $3000, you can get 2 Intel Xeons with 800 Mhz bus, overclock each to 3200-3500 mhz, get a TYAN server board with 12 GB DDR support, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, some crazy ass sound card (a 64-bit version), and you will still spend a lot less than $3000.