quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian Hi guys. It's been a while cause I'm now in third year university and the work is overwhelming so I won't be posting much. Anyway, I'de like to address a few arguements made the last time I posted. Resolution 242 Nature of the Settlements Deportation Resolution 242 states: (i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; (ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; Basically you could say first Israel has to withdraw and then there will be security, or you can say first security then withdrawal but I don't see any sense in that since Palestinian have no security with the occupation. And if you read the top of 242, it says: "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security" The occupation is clearly illegal and security is not a condition for an end to occupation, but a co-requisite. Israel does not have any right to "administer the territories". I have heard that 242 was deliberately written in a vague manner so both sides can interpret it differently. And it was the US who made sure it was written that way. Yes, Jews have lived in Gaza and the West Bank since ancient times. They were there during Ottoman rule and considered themselves Arabs. Some Arab Jews in Palestine rejected Zionism, one of them being my friend and president of Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights, the organization I work with. When I mentioned the settlers, I didn’t mean that Jews shouldn’t live there. I think they should be allowed to live there, but I’m talking specifically about the settlers, not just any Jews. You see, the nature of the settlements is stolen land; private and public properties never paid for. The Arabs in Israel live on the land under the Israeli state, but the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza took the land by confiscation of property, even destruction of Palestinian property and then confiscation of the land. Moreover, if the settlers are willing to stay, they should be under the legal jurisdiction of the Palestinian government, not under the Israeli government when they’re in a different country. There should also be equality on that land. During the occupation, Israel confiscates the land and preserves it for settlers calling it a special for Jews only land. These settlements also lie on the best of the land, parts than can easily tap resources. The settlements also take up most of the water, with swimming pools while Palestinians become desperate for water. Think of this analogy. The US sends its military into Canada, destroys a couple of farms and builds a US compound on top with US security. Canadians would lose their mind. On the other hand, if US citizens came to live in Canada under the Canadian state then that’s obviously different and this is what happens. Now considering the occupied territories’ size, the amount that has been confiscated is overwhelming. Settlements are also used as a strategy as I implied previously. This way Israel will annex the land the settlements are in (making that land part of Israel) under the pretext of security (the wall is also making this easy to accomplish). Settlements are a big reason for the occupation. This is why many Israelis who support us call the occupation “the war of the settlements” as I stated before. If you’re against the settlements i.e. Viber, then you aren’t very far from understanding the true colors of the occupation and Sharon’s intentions. As for deportations, let the UN speak: 22. SC Resolution 694 (1991) of 24 May 1991 [Adopted at 2989th meeting - unanimously] Declares that the action of the Israeli authorities of deporting four Palestinians on 18 May is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which is applicable to all the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem; and deplores this action and reiterates that Israel refrain from deporting any Palestinian civilian from the occupied territories and ensure the safe and immediate return of all those deported. 23. SC Resolution 726 (1992) of 6 January 1992 [Adopted at 3026th meeting - unanimously] Strongly condemns the decision of Israel, the occupying Power, to resume deportation of Palestinian civilians; reaffirms the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 to all the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem; and requests Israel to ensure the safe and immediate return of all those deported. 24. SC Resolution 799 (1992) of 18 December 1992 [Adopted at 3151st meeting-unanimously] Strongly condemns the action taken by Israel, the occupying Power, to deport hundreds of Palestinian civilians (on 17 December 1992); expresses its firm opposition to any such deportations by Israel; reaffirms the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention to all the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem, and affirms that deportation of civilians constitutes a contravention of its obligations under the Convention; and demands that Israel ensure the safe and immediate return to the occupied territories of all those deported. And many many more

im aginst and not aginst the "occupation" as you call it,no israeli including sharon as he stated in the past wants to control this 3 million people that"s clearly hates us,but i think that israel should occupay becuse there"s no other choise,i mean come on what do you want israel to do?,give endless victims to the terrorists "endless chances to get close to allah"?,even Rantisi has admitted that the IDF is minimizing terror from the orginazations and that israel"s actiions is stoping them and further more, terror Org.,arafat and even the palastinian people have said that they will never stop the terror attacks until they will have "their palastine",with tel-aviv-the whole jerusalem,haifa and even more becuse they see thoes parts as settelments as well,you have to be a fool to not get it until now..

about the "returning right" as you call it,as i recall israel has offered the palastinians 5 suloshions to this problem that was accepteble by the US and the UN and the palastinians have rejected this offers,so where is youre always right UN?
not to mention that the Returning right only say that the Palastinians should get their homes and not their houses beck in the home land,there"s a diffrence


and about the settelers:
i will start by saying that settelers are not the real main reason for the conflict becuse the fact is that most terror attacks have taken place inside the green line and not in settelments,for my opinion the real reason is the "returning right" that was also the reason to a stop of any peace talk in the past

like most israelies im angery at the single new settelers who spend a lot of money and soldiers lives to guard them,but still i will admit that there are big settelment that israel needs becuse the sad truth is that they are the human shield for the Israeli people,many researches have shown that a lot of terror acts was prevented by settelers who guard their homes and therefor was the shield for their the next door LEAGAL neiberhoods attacks
also as youve seen in this thread,for a terrorists its a much easier thing to go and kill a nxt door settelrs then people that are much far awey.
and lets not forget that there are "settelments" that were bought even before israel was even a country what makes them a private propety like many other lands in the world that we dont call "settelments" do we?.

every israeli know that the settelers will be removed in a time of a real peace chance its not even a question

Edit: i have almost forgaten to mention that there are many arab settelments in israel,but im too tired to discuss it now.


Good night,good fight

quote:

Originally posted by rizen ...and the cycle of terrorism continues

you are right,from now on i think i should label the american police as "state terrorizm" as you call the IDF,as well,there"s no diffrence

quote:

Originally posted by Viber you are right,from now on i think i should label the american police as "state terrorizm" as you call the IDF,as well,there"s no diffrence

this is one of the stupidest statements i've heard all week. thanks.

to address this thread...it's a tragedy. no one can deny that. it's disgusting and sick that a human being is capable of committing such an act. But, one must not forget that the Israelis have blown up inhabited builidngs before, knowingly!

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It has to start somewhere,
It has to start sometime,
What better place then here?
What better time than now?
--Rage Against the Machine

quote:

Originally posted by 'mju:zik JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A Palestinian gunman shot dead a two-month-old baby girl and a man who opened the door to him at a Jewish settlement in the West Bank on Friday as Israelis celebrated the Jewish New Year. oh yea Israel should definately go easy on them.

By looking at specific cases like this in order to come to the conclusion that you have come up with, only shows your lack of knowledge on the issue.

Its more complicated than you read it.

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Viber theyre answer will be: israelies are evil and sharon is evil! where is cyrus and his friends to say:*in a high tone voice*israel kills palastinians,the palastinians are poor,settelers are not humans and bla bla bla...

i have with great support already proven that the IDF have frequently targeted children.

Its your chioce to research it if you want, but it does happen.

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Israel should stop trying to kill resistance fighters and should stop destroying land and stealing land. With occupation of course there comes resistance. Sending tanks into refugee camps is disgusting. Destroying homes and plowing farms and orchards and stealing water is disgusting. Just read what you don't hear on the news. Read what you do not know. Stop taking our land if you want any peace between us!

GAZA CITY - Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) continued their extra-judicial assassinations early Thursday and killed five Palestinians including a 3-year-old girl, raising the Palestinian death toll—which included two teenagers and a newborn—in a week to eleven. This comes at a time when twenty-seven Israeli air force pilots said they had refused to carry out assassination missions over the occupied Palestinian territory.
The Israeli pilots, believed to be regulars and reservists, recently submitted a petition opposing the missions to air force head General Dan Haloutz, the Israeli radio said, but gave no further details.
In their petition, thought to be the first signed by Israeli air force personnel, the pilots refused “to continue to endanger innocent civilians and to attack densely populated areas,” the radio said.
The Israeli government’s policy of assassinations—dubbed by Israel as targeted killings—of Palestinian activists wounded in the past week 24 Palestinian civilians, 8 of them seriously, during which the IOF detained at least 27 Palestinians and demolished nine houses completely and five houses partially.
These extra-judicial killings, which have been denounced by the international community, are usually carried out by air force personnel in helicopter gunships and occasionally fighter jets and often cause civilian casualties.
On January 25, 2002, 52 army reserve officers and soldiers said they were refusing to serve in the occupied Palestinian territory, but the air force had remained untouched by the protests.
Around 190,000 men and women are on active service in the Israeli air force with a further 450,000 on standby as reserves, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at the University of Tel Aviv, Reuters reported on Thursday.
Early Thursday, IOF troops extra-judicially killed five Palestinians during a raid into al-Bureij refugee camp in central Gaza Strip and an incursion into the southern West Bank city of Hebron, Palestinian and Israeli security sources said.
IOF killed Diab al-Shwaiki and Abdul-Rahim Kik Talahmi in a raid on Issa area in the southern West Bank city of Hebron.
Both Palestinian and Israeli sources confirmed that both men were local leaders of al-Jihad al-Islami (Islamic Jihad) military wing.
An unidentified 3-year-old girl was also killed in the raid, the Israeli daily Ha’aretz reported.
Separately, Jawad Shahin survived a failed Israeli extra-judicial assassination attempt in which Mohammad Akel and Nour Abu Rummanah were killed together with an IOF soldier early Thursday in an Israeli military incursion into al-Bureij refugee camp in central Gaza Strip.
Six other Palestinians and six IOF soldiers were wounded in the IOF raid on the refugee camp.
IOF troops surrounded the house of Jawad Shahin, a local leader of the Islamic Jihad in the camp, Palestinians said.
Israeli military sources claimed IOF soldiers went in to arrest Shahin. Gunmen in the house opened fire, and the soldiers fired back, the sources told Reuters.
After the IOF pulled out, the bodies of the two Palestinians were found.
One day earlier, IOF killed unarmed 15-year-old Mohammad Issa Hamdan by a tank shell that also wounded eleven Palestinians, five of them seriously, during a military incursion into the southern Gaza Strip Rafah refugee camp where IOF troops demolished seven houses.
Israeli military sources confirmed the incursion into Rafah refugee camp on the Egyptian border and claimed five tank shells were fired after IOF soldiers came under fire.
Palestinian medics and witnesses said the 15-year-old was unarmed and was killed by a tank shell that wounded eleven others.
On Tuesday, IOF killed two Palestinians in Nablus and Gaza as a teenager died of wounds sustained earlier.
IOF shot dead Marwan Ahmed al-Najar near the illegal Israeli settlement of Dugit in the Gaza Strip, claiming he was an armed Islamic Jihad man trying to carry out an attack inside Israel.
IOF sources said their troops also killed an unidentified Palestinian overnight Tuesday in Rafidyah, a Nablus neighborhood, in the West Bank.
IOF troops also wounded three Palestinians, including a 12-year-old girl in the Gaza Strip and detained nineteen Palestinians in the West Bank on Tuesday.
On Monday, 16-year-old Palestinian boy Shadi Mansour died of wounds sustained by an IOF bullet during an Israeli military incursion into the West Bank city Nablus in December 2002.
Early Monday, IOF killed a Palestinian man in Hebron, wounded four Palestinians, including a 12 and 8-year-old boy and girl, detained six more Palestinians and demolished seven more houses since September 18 as a newborn died at an Israeli military roadblock in Bethlehem.
IOF killed Palestinian Basel al-Qawasmeh early Monday when they demolished the house he was hiding in the West Bank city of Hebron.
IOF gunfire also on Monday wounded three Palestinians, including the 12-year-old girl Einas Subuh, in Tal al-Sultan neighborhood of the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah.
Last Saturday, the wife of Khaled al-Atrash had to deliver her baby on an IOF roadblock in Bethlehem after soldiers blocked their way from al-Walajah village to a Jerusalem hospital for more than two hours, which led to the death of the newborn.
On Friday, the Palestine Red Crescent confirmed that an unidentified 12-year-old boy, Palestinian man Khalil Abu el-Rubb, 19, and 8-year-old girl Farah Abu Srour, were taken to the hospital after being seriously injured by IOF gunfire in Jenin.

Source: Palestine Media Center - (http://www.palestine-pmc.com/)

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

Mjmusik, whatt do you have to say about this.

Thanks for the update on the disgusting acts of the IDF!

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King By looking at specific cases like this in order to come to the conclusion that you have come up with, only shows your lack of knowledge on the issue. Its more complicated than you read it.

whats more complicated? they shot and killed a 2 month old at point blank...please cite me an example of a similar attack by the IDF.

oh and the UN is pretty useless so you can stop posting that crap. (not u cyrus queen, the other asshole).

i know this attack isn't abnormal since that shit happens all the time I just wanted to highlight the specific age of this victim. 2 months. 2 fucking months. I would have paid every single cent of my savings to have been the person who got to kill that coward.

not ppl that im not saying Israel is right and Palestine is wrong. so stop getting all defensive. for fucks sake your defending the murder of a 2 month old.

that's 60 days of life.

the examples u cite are pretty worthless since specific situations aren't described (could have been crossfire with militants). the soldiers had a right not to let those ppl through since they did not submit to searches (which you did not mention). why dont u talk about the innocent car they blew up at a roadblock a few months back and then not mention the fact that more than 20 rounds were fired as warnings into the air? what the driver was deaf? also please come up with some better sources than the palestinian murder network.

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boomchikaboom

Last edited by 'mju:zik on Sep-28-2003 at 08:08

If you don't recognize the UN as legitimate then I guess you don't recognize Israel as a legitimate state. The UN gave you that state, dumbass.
A two month old baby died. That is horrific, but it is human nature for these disgusting murders to take place under the circumstances the Palestinians are put through. Stop denying human nature. This is life. When you make people suffer a miserable life, they fight back with a vengeance. They will kill and lust for your blood because you made their lives a living hell. They will want you and your children dead because you robbed them of their lives, their homes, and their families. GET OFF MY LAND if you want peace!

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

Let me just say that there really is no difference between Palestinian gunmen and civilians. Palestinians as a whole are revolting against Israeli occupation. Civilians take up arms or stones to fight soldiers and tanks. Anyone could have a gun to fight with. This is a revolution. Everyone participates in defending the land. When you say Israeli soldiers are fighting militants, you should be aware that it means Israeli soldiers are fighting civilians with guns. Civilians who decide to defend their land and their homes. It's resistance. And not everything the resistance does is something to be proud of. But nevertheless, it is resistance. You fight the oppressor with whatever means necessary. They come to invade your land, you take up arms, you find guns and fight to the death for your home and honor. When the IDF is fighting "militants", it means they are fighting civilians who are defending their land. I hope that makes sense to you. It's like the American revolution. British soldiers come to dictate an American's life, so the American takes a gun and fires at them to defend his way of life and his home. Many families wish to arm themselves. You've seen this situation in movies all the time, but you have trouble linking them to Palestinians because of the effect the media has had on you.

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*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian If you don't recognize the UN as legitimate then I guess you don't recognize Israel as a legitimate state. The UN gave you that state, dumbass. A two month old baby died. That is horrific, but it is human nature for these disgusting murders to take place under the circumstances the Palestinians are put through. Stop denying human nature. This is life. When you make people suffer a miserable life, they fight back with a vengeance. They will kill and lust for your blood because you made their lives a living hell. They will want you and your children dead because you robbed them of their lives, their homes, and their families. GET OFF MY LAND if you want peace!

haha thats so stupid you're actually saying that the death of an infant is avenging the attacks carried out by armed forces. shouldn't they be targeting the people that attacked them instead of defenseless 2 month old girls? oh wait they are too big a pussies.

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boomchikaboom