very good read, I especially enjoyed Vesa's last post. Definitely some fresh interesting thoughts!

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With critics like Chomsky, Buchanan and Farrakhan, the Israel lobby has had a relatively easy time persuading most Americans that critics of Israel are lunatic-fringe figures.

Loved that one

Thanks for the info everyone. Seeing as I have an A-Level in Government & Politics (2 of the units being about the US) you’d think I’d know what a neo-con was. Lol, oh well.

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Originally posted by Vesa Neocons started as a quite small group of Communists (Trotskyists to be exact), then moved gradually to the Democratic party some time after World War II.

Are you serious? I’m sure Trotsky would be rolling in his grave if he knew that. I guess the Ice Pick has got him lodged where he is lol.

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Originally posted by Vesa Neocons love spending big bucks (coming from taxation, of course) for "good causes" like new military technology and foreign occupations (Kosovo, Iraq). This trait especially makes Neocons look like hard-core Socialists rather than Conservatives.

That depends on what you mean by hard-core Socialist. If by that you mean Stalinism, which had sweet FA to do with true Socialism, then I’ll let you off, but true socialists would spend the money on social welfare et al not military hardware.

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Originally posted by Vesa - Libertarians want to remove all domestic obstructions to capitalism and to liberty of individual. Libertarians want to remove border restrictions in order to let capital and individuals move around the world freely. Libertarians hate war, and see occupations as symptoms of Socialism.

How is occupation a symptom of Socialism?

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Originally posted by Vesa - Rightist Realists are good-intentioned, but believe in a Machiavellian world. They are ready to fight for Capitalism and Democracy against Socialism and Totalitarianism, but only because Capitalism and Democracy are the better of these choices.

Why is Socialism getting thrown in with Totalitarianism? You can have a Capitalist and Democratic state which is Socialist.

hmm... see if someone can guess which view Spin Doctor associates with...

The thing is it all is quiet pointless you can't define a "neo-con" because there is no such thing. Each neo-conservative has a different view of what it means to be a neo-conservative. Their is no "pope" for the neo-cons, they don't follow what one guy or one notion dictates.

Its the same to be said of if you were to label someone as a communist or a capitalist or socialist (as Spin Doctor will confirm).

What you did, is get a vague understanding of that guys political philosophy. But each guy is different.

Neo-conservatives are as I understand conservatives - they want things to stay more or less the same. They want this because they think the current environment is pretty damn good compared to whatever there was before (or what they can see in the future). However, they are still "neo", they have a new approach to conservativism. They understand that they must act to achieve this conservation, and they want the world to be a good place (this is what they want to conserve after all), they understand to do this you simply might need to use force on occasion to acheive that.

Thats basically a neo-conservative, a guy that wants to keep the 90s era success, and realize its not always going to be pretty doing it.

Beyong that your conspiring and adding labels that may or may not be accurate, but certainly don't repersent the major movement.

Just wanted to make that point...

Last edited by Yoepus on Sep-30-2003 at 22:21

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Originally posted by Yoepus hmm... see if someone can guess which view Spin Doctor associates with...

Me? Why I’m a member of Liberal Democrats, can’t you guess?

Last edited by Spin Doctor on Oct-02-2003 at 01:42

Vesa...

i have questions, tho they may be somewhat simple-minded:

your use of 'magnitudes' in reference to the US/Israel debate...you say that the population of the US is roughly 2 magnitudes the size, as far as mobilization, etc...is this a strict number reference, or a generalization?

i apologize as i am not familiar with the exact pop census on Israel|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

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Originally posted by biznology i apologize as i am not familiar with the exact pop census on Israel|

the poplulation of israel is 6,631,000 (http://www.religiousconsultation.or...ation_gains.htm) and the US population 292,226,897 (http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/popclock)

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

hey occrider just curious, has anyone ever paid you to write their essay ?

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Palm Trees > Pine Trees , Sand > Snow

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Originally posted by dEsidEL hey occrider just curious, has anyone ever paid you to write their essay ?

How much are you offering ?

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by Vesa In contrast to Neocons near the centre, real American Rightists include Conservatives, Libertarians and Rightist Realists.

Woooooooohoooooo!

Deep in my heart I always knew that I was right!

quote:

Originally posted by Vesa Neocons started as a quite small group of Communists (Trotskyists to be exact), then moved gradually to the Democratic party some time after World War II. During the Cold War, they supported American Machtpolitik against the Soviet Union. That's why they are often confused with Rightist Hawks who also supported American Machtpolitik. Because of Jimmy Carter and other such soft Democratic administrations, many Neocons changed from Democrats to Republicans, and also adopted some Conservative domestic policies, even if not in a very convincing way.

Yeah, that's what I've been reading. Scary!