quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 8 years for giving little alcohol to teens????? That judge really lacks the common sense and has an iq whose number is the same as my shoe size.

Not to mention he took away the kid's parents for 8 years.

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- Im 19, live in Miami, where the WMC happens, all the big name DJ's that each TA dreams of seen.. I missed Armin van Buuren Friday, because the bouncer was an ass and took away my ID ( ye ye fake but .. but it was Armin ).. and tired of all this crap, all the government is doing is making US more inmature.. kids will never mature if all thise laws are imposed.. loook at england or all the other countries in the world, and the problems that we supposedly face here, they dont ( in terms of 18+ clubs and such ).. It's sick and tireing..

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quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX - Im 19, live in Miami, where the WMC happens, all the big name DJ's that each TA dreams of seen.. I missed Armin van Buuren Friday, because the bouncer was an ass and took away my ID ( ye ye fake but .. but it was Armin ).. and tired of all this crap, all the government is doing is making US more inmature.. kids will never mature if all thise laws are imposed.. loook at england or all the other countries in the world, and the problems that we supposedly face here, they dont ( in terms of 18+ clubs and such ).. It's sick and tireing..

I've studied a lot about this subject, and to be honest the UK is a terrible example of a country to emulate in terms of drinking culture. The young people there binge drink even more than we in America. I don't think it has anything to do with the drinking age there, but more the culture.

The problem is not with alcohol consumption itself, because it's been shown in dozens of studies from around the world that moderate drinkers live longer than non-drinkers and (much) longer than bingers.
They also have lower risk of heart disease and stroke.
The problem is to figure out the best way to encourage responsible and more moderate drinking. Talking from personal experience, I have friends and cousins who used to binge a lot, and when they became legal they drank more often but binged less.

I just find it hypocritical that in the USA you are tried as an adult at 18 (or sometimes even 17), and there are US soldiers in Iraq who are 19 and 20 years old getting shot at who are treated as kids in their own country. I think at least those who would take a bullet for their country (those in the military) should be treated as adults, but that's only my personal opinion.

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- Yeah, well, I have no research on the drinking, I know that Ibiza is all garbaged down by the English when they go to the island, they get trashed badly.. but besides that, I dont know much about that. Im not a drinker, I dont drink, in fact, I hate beer, I cant stand it, what I do is drink moderately some "Sex on the Beach" or any deli drink, but that would be like 2-3 at most a night.. I barely drink 2 though. But when it comes down to clubbing, 21+, is just stupid, but understandable, sadly, in a society like the US has. In Miami it used to be 18+ like 4-5 yeras ago, but since the 18 year old couldn't behave, they changed all the laws..

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Story from the UK:

quote:

UK Addiction Expert Calls for Increased Drinking Age 9/29/2003 A leading addiction expert in the United Kingdom has called on government officials to increase the legal drinking age from 18 to 21, the BBC reported Sept. 11. Professor Colin Drummond, a consultant psychiatrist who is advising the government on alcohol matters, said, "Certainly, in America where this has been done, there has been a significant reduction in, for example, alcohol-related road deaths." Drummond said that alcohol misuse among 18- to 24-year-olds in the last 12 years is up 32 percent for men and 70 percent for women. "About a third of men and a fifth of women are now drinking above the government's safe drinking levels," he noted. Drummond also said the government should require health warnings, similar to those on cigarette packs, on alcohol bottles and cans.

It's a fact that the vast majority of those who cause drunken driving crashes (at least in the US) are middle aged men, and not young people. The evidence he's referring to does not conclusively show that raising the legal age to 21 in the states is the cause of reduced alcohol-related vehicle crashes among teens from the 1980's to the 1990's. Indeed there were many different factors that could have contributed to this decline including:

-greater awareness of the dangers of drunk driving among Americans
-implementation/utilization of designated sober drivers among society
-improved safety of autos
-increased use of seatbelts
-increased utilization of taxi services (which often give people free rides home if they have too much to drink)
-the number of people drinking in the country has been on the decline


All that is not to mention the fact that there were sharp declines in alcohol-related vehicle crashes across all age groups (not just teens) in this time span. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that raising the drinking age in the States may have helped reduce teen vehicle crashes, or it may not have because of all the other variables. (It certainly didn't hurt of course)


It seems to me that if young people have to drive out to the woods or to a friends house for a keg party instead of going to a bar they will not be able to use the free "safe ride home" taxi services offered for people in most cities' bar/club/entertainment districts. Thus they would be more likely to drive drunk. Raising the drinking age doesn't stop drinking by teens, it only pushes it underground in an unsupervised environment where there are only like-aged individuals who perpetuate the same mentality of binging. Better to drink in a public place like a restaurant where it's not socially acceptable to puke on the ground, don't you think? Besides this law is discriminatory on the basis of age, and you have the laughable situation of two people who can legally get married at 18 but are illegal to drink champaign at their own wedding!

The last state to raise their drinking age from -21 to +21 was Louisiana. The state supreme court even ruled that the higher age was unconstitutional on the basis of age, but the anti-alcohol groups are masters at manipulating the media. The media pressure caused the court to later reverse it's decision. In New Orleans they hardly seem to enforce the law however.


Despite all these gains in reducing alcohol-related morbidity on the roads in the last few decades, the US still leads the world in the number of people killed or maimed in alcohol related vehicle crashes. This is probably due to the fact that:

-almost everyone drives from the age of 15-17 years old
-the country is more spread out than other countries and has more roads
-thus public transportaion/walking to licensed establishments is less practcal
-we have a larger population than most other countries



-I should also add that all the U.S. territories that I'm aware of (Guam, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands etc) are still 18+ drinking age

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Last edited by DaveSZ on Oct-07-2003 at 02:58

I think it has clearly been shown that as far as drugs go, making something illegal does not lower usage rates. Instead it created subcultures, and groups based around the illegal activity, which are much harder to control because their outside the mainstream.

Since we are talking about drinking here I think the mainstream obviouselly involves going to a bar or club and the underground involves someones house, a park, etc. In a bar if you've had to much to drink the bar can, and often will refuse to serve you. In another situation people can keep drinking until they run out of alchohol. In a bar the bartender can, and again often will take away your keys so you cant drive home. In another situation you have noone to stop you. If we want to look at a very extreme example another point is that in a bar if you drink enough to suffer from alchohol poisoning you have sober people there with a responcibility to get help, in another situaiton you often do not.

Here in Canada the drinking age varies from province to province, but is I believe either 18 or 19 throughout. Penalties imposed are again provincial so I am only speaking for Ontario, but like most things, not nearly as strict as in the U.S. Here one of three things will happen: they will either been taken home (as happened to me on one occasion), ticketed which is the most common thing, or in a real extreme taken to and put in a cell over night to sober up. I am not actually sure if the law gives them any more power then this but these are the only things I have ever heard of happening. I think the only place you can really run into trouble is if you are caught trying to buy alchohol with either a faked government ID, or an altered one. I believe that can actually be considered to be a semi-serious crime.

Another problem posed by some of the drinking laws is that it gives police extensive powers to violate peoples civil rights. Police will often hassle people and search them simply on the basis they are hanging out and look or sell intoxiated.

As for the leading to more illegal drug use, I think that this is quite possibly true. Before I ever really drank I had smoked pot and taken mushrooms, and they were both more available. That being said had alchohol been available I am in no way sure that I would of used it instead of pot, which was the main drug I did at the time.

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I think that 18-20 year olds are considered second class citizens in the US. The 21 drinking age may be unconstitutional. Equal protection of the laws, if we become citizens at 18, the laws are discriminating on because of age. Someone needs to start a movement b/c these poor kids in Iraq are getting shot at, but when they go home, they can't go get a beer at the bar.

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Originally posted by davedresden oh my fucking god i die, dave

quote:

Originally posted by surferfb I think that 18-20 year olds are considered second class citizens in the US.

I would tend to agree with that assertion.

To be completely honest though, I'd feel a bit ansy about 18 year olds being able to buy handguns or have handgun permits. Drinking is a different because it's a cultural issue, and alcohol is very much intertwined with youth culture. You can't legislate something like that away. As you can see the penalties for breaking alcohol related laws vary depending on where you are, and tend to be harsher in the more conservative areas (e.g. Virginia).

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I totally agree about the soldiers who can't buy alcohol thing. It's an incredible hypocrisy that the US government would gleefully allow under 21 kids to go off and fight its wars, yet not allow them a little fun when they get home. "Second class citizen" is right for the 18-20 age group. I think that the US gov't believes it can take advantage of people that age. Sure, let them go to Iraq and risk their lives and get shot, but should these heroes be allowed to come home and have a drink with their buddies? No way, they're too young!

Here in Canada, when you become an adult (18 in Quebec and Alberta, 19 everywhere else), you get treated like one, instead of being given all the responsibilities at age 18 but none of the perks until you're 21.

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Drunk driving fatalities have increased in the state of Vermont (Howard Dean's state) instead of decreased because of Vermont raising the drinking age, and Canada having a lower age:


http://www.house.gov/bernie/town_me...ighSchool3.html

quote:

CHELSEA DOWNING: Drunk driving has become a major problem in the small towns of northern Vermont. Just a year ago, four teens were killed in a car accident on their way back from Canada. Alcohol was proved to be a factor in this crash. Since the drinking age above the border is 18, teenagers drive to Montreal to enjoy bar-hopping with their friends. The driving coming home from the bars can be hazardous. How can these problems be prevented? The question has lingered in the minds of many, since the number of Vermont traffic deaths involving drunk drivers under 21 have increased. Stopping underaged drinking altogether is an extremely difficult task. If we can reduce the driving while young people are under the influence, serious deaths and injuries can be prevented. We need to focus on the driving aspect, because it yields much more serious consequences than just drinking alone. The teen curfew is one action the state legislature has discussed. The curfew will prevent drivers under 18 from being on the roads after 11 p.m. This would restrict inexperienced drivers from being on the road when the risk period is high. But it also restricts young people from doing normal things, such as going to movies or the drive-in, or simply getting together with their friends. People above 18 can still drive. These are the people who can drink legally in Montreal. This curfew will not affect these teens, who face a long drive home from the bars in Canada. We have proof that this trip can be fatal. The state of Vermont has recognized that we have a problem. Increased numbers of police officers, strict DWI laws, and teen curfews are a few of the things they are in charge of. These measures can help solve the problem, but what really will make the difference is what these teenagers are exposed to in their everyday lives. Their school, friends, and especially their parents are all responsible for the decisions they will have to make.

This is a similar result to limiting the amount of alcohol selling establishments. The people have to drive further, and are more apt to drive a longer way while intoxicated.

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I have, in fact, been involved recently in a serious car accident because of drinking. Since we are underage (18), we had to go to the woods to drink because we had nowhere else to go. After drinking, we had to drive out of the woods (no other way to get back), and going only 15 miles per hour, we slid off of the road and rolled 10 times down an embankment, off of a 20 foot clay wall, and hit a tree to come to a stop. The driver suffered a broken collarbone and a broken arm, I suffered a cracked skull (after hitting the window with my head and breaking it) a 5 inch laceration in my right arm, 3 broken fingers, and misc. places with glass stuck into the skin, the person next to me suffered 3 broken ribs, a concussion, and a torn muscle in his back, and the person sitting next to the driver suffered a broken arm and 2 teeth knocked out. After it all we climbed out of the windshield (after reviving the person next to me, knocked out cold), we climbed back out of the area we were stuck in and called an ambulance. Luckily, no one died but many of us still have pain from the accident. Irresponsible, I know, but if we had had somewhere safe to drink, it would have never happened.

To sum it all up, I hope that someday, people of my age group can be treated as adults in full effect and not as, "of age yet still not old enough."

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