quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek you didn't get my point.

Ok, you said that christianity should be included in the EU constitution. I think that doing that can easily be interpreted as the EU supporting one religion over another, regardless of the fact that it may be for cultural reasons. If i was a Muslim, Hindu, Buhidist etc or a Jew living in an EU member state, that would anger me greatly to have Christianity officially mentioned/supported in the constitution; even a mere mention would be irritating/wrong in my opinion.

As for the Turkey point, I must admit that I really don't know much about the situation there, but doesn't the EU exist to represent the geographical region of Europe?
The fact that Turkey may be culturally different or have higher numbers of Islamic (just an example ) people shouldn't really come into it

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quote:

Originally posted by arctic Ok, you said that christianity should be included in the EU constitution. I think that doing that can easily be interpreted as the EU supporting one religion over another, regardless of the fact that it may be for cultural reasons. If i was a Muslim, Hindu, Buhidist etc or a Jew living in an EU member state, that would anger me greatly to have Christianity officially mentioned/supported in the constitution; even a mere mention would be irritating/wrong in my opinion.

why would they be irritated? they immigrated to a country where Christians (or other majorities) live. No one is opressing anyone or stating that Christianity is an obligatory religion (wtf?) to citizens of such or such state.

quote:

As for the Turkey point, I must admit that I really don't know much about the situation there,

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but doesn't the EU exist to represent the geographical region of Europe?

Europe as a geographical continent doesn't exist. Its only an historical invention, which never included Turkey.

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The fact that Turkey may be culturally different or have higher numbers of Islamic (just an example ) people shouldn't really come into it

whats the point of having an EUROPEAN union if it was to include every other country that doesn't even share basic common european cultural elements which are very close to the Christian values... I hope you get my point now.

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quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek why would they be irritated? they immigrated to a country where Christians (or other majorities) live. No one is opressing anyone or stating that Christianity is an obligatory religion (wtf?) to citizens of such or such state. Europe as a geographical continent doesn't exist. Its only an historical invention, which never included Turkey. whats the point of having an EUROPEAN union if it was to include every other country that doesn't even share basic common european cultural elements which are very close to the Christian values... I hope you get my point now.

Believe it or not, I do see what you're saying, perhaps the fact that I don't live in Europe and hence don't hear a whole lot about the Turkey situation might have us on different wavelengths here.

Basically I just think that Christianity shouldn't be mentioned unless it is to state that it isn't a state religion and people are free to practice whatever faith they choose.
I still don't really get why it should be mentioned

The way EUrope and Turkey is portrayed in the media down here appears to be having an effect on my view , I've always seen Turkey as somewhat close (Culturally) to most European countries, I realize that they are rather backward in some of their pracitces. I don't support their death penalty in any shape or form, nor their treatment of the Kurds. I know that Turkey isn't perfect, I guess I think that accepting them migh have some affect on them, entice them to change their practices/discriminatry policies if they feel accepted as part of wider Europe.

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quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek i'm not a religious guy, but I believe that Christianity should be included in the constitution... not for its religious implications but its cultural ones. I think the countries that want Christianity in there are the same ones who don't want to see Turkey in the EU, and I don't see anything wrong with that. EUropean countries are different in essence to Turkey and other none Christian countries.

*applause*

I share your views to the letter on this one.
The EU is really in an identity crisis, as there is no clear vision of where this project should go next. Should it be a larger free-trade zone or should it eventually turn into an integrated state? I used to advocate the first direction, but has lately started to focus on the traits that europeans share rather than their differences. And to me it seems like christianity is a common denominator - not as a religion but as a cornerstone of the european mentality. I would like something like that to be put into a constitution. Along with it I would put the values we have inherited from ancient Greece: Seperation of state from religion, democracy, the scientific method, etc.
Such a constitution would exclude Turkey, Russia, and african countries from joining, but would IMO be a much more realistic project. All over Europe there exist areas where immigrants are isolated/have isolated themselves. If we can't even create synergy on such small scales, we have no chance of doing it on a supernational level I think. Too bad that having this view is really not PC in Europe these days, and since Bush is pushing for acceptance of Turkey into the EU, you will have a hard time finding a politician in power with the guts to say it.

On the topic of the French banning religious apparel, I agree that it does seem to limit religious freedom, and the state really shouldn't put rules for how to dress in institutions. But should religious freedom always come before other kinds of freedom?
In Denmark we have had a couple of court cases where muslims have been fired, because they insisted on wearing headbands, or because they need to pray on regular basis throughout the day. In my view an employer should be given the freedom of choosing what kind of image his or her company projects to the surroundings. If that image is not compatible with employees wearing religious apparel then he or she should be allowed to fire them. Just as I would fire a guy wearing swastikas and military boots. I guess that in most of these cases, a majority of the customers do not really care, but I still do not think that society has any right to tell a private business who they can fire and who they cannot.