quote:

Originally posted by imokruok For the people who truly believe Bush lied, that's giving him a lot of credit, isn't it? (Especially for people who think he's an idiot). To believe that he lied, you have to believe that Bush knew more than all of those intelligence services combined, and then went on to actively deceive the world. This anti-war rhetoric may sound nice, but it's factually flawed.

Errr...no you don’t. You just say one thing while the evidence says another, you don’t need to be a genius in order to do that. Ones honesty is not a reflection of their intelligence.

quote:

Originally posted by Spin Doctor Errr...no you don’t. You just say one thing while the evidence says another.

You missed my point. Because the evidence didn't "say another," the claim that Bush lied necessarily means that he actually did know more than all of the world's intelligence services. That's my point here.

People say Bush lied...but then, so did everybody else. (The French, Russians, Saudis, etc.) As I said before, the world's intelligence services never disputed that Iraq had WMD's. They all believed he did. The UN dispute concerned what to do about it.

quote:

Originally posted by imokruok People say Bush lied...but then, so did everybody else. (The French, Russians, Saudis, etc.) As I said before, the world's intelligence services never disputed that Iraq had WMD's. They all believed he did. The UN dispute concerned what to do about it.

you either missed my post, or are a complete idiot. Also where did the French, Russians, Saudies, etc lied in Iraq's WMD situation? So far France and Germany are right, NO WMDs. GG.

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Originally posted by rizen you either missed my post, or are a complete idiot. Also where did the French, Russians, Saudies, etc lied in Iraq's WMD situation? So far France and Germany are right, NO WMDs. GG.

I never said that France, Russia, et al. lied. Nobody lied.

Your argument: France says there are no WMDs. Russia says there are no WMDs. Bush tells the world that there are WMDs, but truly believed that there weren't any. Ergo, Bush lied.

Reminder at this point: a lie is an active deception.

The problem with your argument is that France and Russia said no such thing. Every major intelligence agency in the world believed there were WMDs in Iraq, although the amounts were debatable. (I believe the official French position was that there was "no irrefutable proof that WMDs had been retained or destroyed.") But as I said before, the debate in the UN was war versus inspections, not war versus do absolutely nothing. Lest we forget, Clinton pursued WMD disarmament as well. Was he a liar? Would he have bothered arguing for disarmament if he truly believed that there were no WMDs there? "Yeah, I'll just waste my time here at the UN. There really aren't any WMDs, but it would be cool if I said there were."

I have no problem with someone reveling in the fact that the intelligence agencies of the world were wrong. But to suggest that Bush is a liar is to suggest that every other intelligence agency in the world was in on the deception.

Go ahead and scream, "Bush was wrong!" But yeah, I know, it doesn't have the same power as "Bush lied!" I can sit here and debate this all day, because frankly, I need the posts.

p.s. The people who were the most surprised about not finding any WMDs were probably the French. After all, Israel in 1981 didn't destroy everything that France sold Iraq. There was plenty of equipment that's now completely unaccounted for.

Last edited by imokruok on Nov-24-2003 at 03:06

quote:

Originally posted by imokruok Reminder at this point: a lie is an active deception.

By that definition of lying, the Bush Administration continues to lie about the link between Iraq and the Sept. 11th attacks.

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OK! Now everyone can say Bush lied!

Nov 27, 12:27 PM (ET)

By TERENCE HUNT

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - President Bush made a surprise Thanksgiving visit to American troops in Baghdad Thursday, flying secretly to violence-scarred Iraq to thank U.S. forces for serving there.