quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Alright, what book was that in? I know I heard that somewhere.

My guess would be one written by Michael Savage, Ann Coulter, or some other such hatemonger, in which case I wouldn't put much faith in the accuracy of those allegations. Shaka, if you can provide a media source that corroborates your allegations and at least attempts to be non-biased I will probably believe you.

I doubt there's ever been a politician (or political pundit) who isn't a bit crooked however.

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Originally posted by dj adagnitio Actually its not outlandish. After the Vietnam war when the remaining soldiers returned they were often booed , spit on, etc. Those troops are responcible for choosing to join a military that would go into such wars. They are not merely defending their country. That being said, it could very easily be argued that it is not their fault, for it is their conditioning that makes them believe their actions are reasonable or just.

Last I checked there were Canadian soldiers serving in Afghanistan, however I'm going to have to agree with you that being a soldier often predisposes one to be more likely to blindly follow both mentally and physically in regards to carrying out orders. Just to clarify, I'm not saying all in the military agree with their orders 100% of the time, but they are obligated to carry them out as it's part of the job description. In fact you point out Vietnam, but most of those who served were drafted!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka My first love in animated series will always be Family Guy.

My first love was The Simpsons, but Family Guy is up there in terms of all-time greats!

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Last edited by DaveSZ on Nov-27-2003 at 08:25

There is no reason at all to show disdain for your military. They are essentially components of your own society so to establish prejudices and differences between you and them is simply ludicrous. If you are looking for a scapegoat, look further. I may disagree with a lot of policy decisions, but the one thing that I'll never fail to get pissed off at is when respect is not given to those who have earned it many times over through their deeds and actions in the service of their country. Even the Wehrmacht was given respect by its enemies in WW2 ... to do any less from our own society is truly a sad sign indeed.

Btw, the family guy sucked. Futurama was the best.

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by occrider There is no reason at all to show disdain for your military. They are essentially components of your own society so to establish prejudices and differences between you and them is simply ludicrous. If you are looking for a scapegoat, look further. I may disagree with a lot of policy decisions, but the one thing that I'll never fail to get pissed off at is when respect is not given to those who have earned it many times over through their deeds and actions in the service of their country. Even the Wehrmacht was given respect by its enemies in WW2 ... to do any less from our own society is truly a sad sign indeed. Btw, the family guy sucked. Futurama was the best.

For every message you post...I shall kill you


Victory is mine!

Last edited by ZinG on Nov-27-2003 at 08:28

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Originally posted by Shakka I find it utterly disgraceful that Hillary Clinton is travelling to the middle-east over the holidays to give a little howdy-doody to our troops, whom she has been openly comtemptuous of on many occasions in the past. Can anyone say vote buying? A smarmy move indeed. I hope she gets booed back to the states, as I don't think the Marines and other armed servicemen have an ounce of respect for that scheming bitch.

I agree, If you aren't going over to really be with the troops.you have no business over there.. and I mean we all know she's only doing it for publicity.

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~Nessa

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 I agree, If you aren't going over to really be with the troops.you have no business over there.. and I mean we all know she's only doing it for publicity.

As opposed to W, who's doing it for out of the kindness of his heart right? Give me a break man, they are both doing it for publicity.

Anyways, this is still pretty funny:

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Originally posted by DaveSaenz As opposed to W, who's doing it for out of the kindness of his heart right? Give me a break man, they are both doing it for publicity.

Bush is, He loves the troops. He cares about them. He's not the kind of guy who would pull a publicity stunt.

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~Nessa

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Bush is, He loves the troops. He cares about them. He's not the kind of guy who would pull a publicity stunt.

Of course not. All the troops love him.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...2455047,00.html

Perhaps if the press could have actually talked to the troops they would have told a different story.

You almost wonder just how happy all the troops are over there to serve their Commander in Chief. So happy that they just can't contain themselves here on earth:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAW30SXBND.html

They'll be more happy to come home and be a proud veteran. Bush likes his veterans, so much that he thinks they need to make it more on their own:

http://inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=465_0_2_0_C

These are some of my favorite points:

quote:

*With 130,000 soldiers still in the heat of battle in Iraq and more fighting and dying in Afghanistan, the Bush administration sought this year to cut $75 a month from the “imminent danger” pay added to soldiers’ paychecks when in battle zones. The administration sought to cut by $150 a month the family separation allowance offered to those same soldiers and others who serve overseas away from their families. Although they were termed “wasteful and unnecessary” by the White House, Congress blocked those cuts this year, largely because of Democratic votes. *This year’s White House budget for Veterans Affairs cut $3 billion from VA hospitals—despite 9,000 casualties in Iraq and as aging Vietnam veterans demand more care. VA spending today averages $2,800 less per patient than nine years ago. *The administration also proposed levying a $250 annual charge on all Priority 8 veterans—those with “non-service-related illnesses”—who seek treatment at VA facilities, and seeks to close VA hospitals to Priority 8 veterans who earn more than $26,000 a year. *Until protests led to a policy change, the Bush administration also was charging injured GIs from Iraq $8 a day for food when they arrived for medical treatment at the Fort Stewart, Georgia, base where most injured are treated. *In mid-October, the Pentagon, at the request of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, announced plans to shutter 19 commissaries—military-run stores that offer discounted food and merchandise that helps low-paid enlisted troops and their families get by—along with the possiblility of closing 19 more. *At the same time, the Pentagon also announced it was trying to determine whether to shutter 58 military-run schools for soldiers’ children at 14 military installations. *The White House is seeking to block a federal judge’s award of damages to a group of servicemen who sued the Iraqi government for torture during the 1991 Gulf War. The White House claims the money, to come from Iraqi assets confiscated by the United States, is needed for that country’s reconstruction. *The administration beat back a bipartisan attempt in Congress to add $1.3 billion for VA hospitals to Bush’s request of $87 billion for war and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan. *In perhaps its most dangerous policy, the White House is refusing to provide more than 40,000 active-duty troops in Iraq with Kevlar body armor, leaving it up to them and their families to buy this life-saving equipment. This last bit of penny-pinching prompted Pentagon critic and Vietnam veteran Col. David Hackworth to point to “the cost of the extraordinary security” during Bush’s recent trip to Asia, which he noted grimly “would cover a vest for every soldier” in Iraq.

I don't know about your personal sources, but the friends I've talked to who are either serving their time over there, or have loved ones in the military, all seem to say the same thing: they have no idea why they are there, and firmly believe they are fighting a fruitless war.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Of course not. All the troops love him.

Fact/Truth-Majority of military is conservative.

quote:

Perhaps if the press could have actually talked to the troops they would have told a different story.

Sorry,but I don't trust most of what the press says. When we were in the heat of the war, I watched Fox..mainly because there were reporters imbedded(sp?) with the troops. You could hear the real thing.

quote:

You almost wonder just how happy all the troops are over there to serve their Commander in Chief. So happy that they just can't contain themselves here on earth:

Very happy, My father volunteered to serve the first time we were going over to Iraq,when Bush Sr. was in. He said he would be glad to do his job. He didn't get called,but he was talking to those in the foxholes.

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I don't know about your personal sources, but the friends I've talked to who are either serving their time over there, or have loved ones in the military, all seem to say the same thing: they have no idea why they are there, and firmly believe they are fighting a fruitless war.

Well I'll be blunt,I don't believe you.But, that's because I don't know you. I live in a very heavy military area. I'm surrounded by bases on all sides. Most of my family served in the military. ( Both of my great uncles ( are brothers ) faught in WWII.. My great uncle Charles faught on the front lines in Italy, My mothers three brothers all served in either the army or the navy, my mothers father served in the army, and my dad served in the USAF, My mother served in the USAF...Etc..) Every last person that I know in the military,and I've talked to are glad to see we're FINALLY going over there. I'm not just talking about the youngies here either. I'm talking about the people I met while at the pentagon with my father. Yea,that's right,not just Lt. Col here. Full Col. and Generals infact.

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~Nessa

Hmm,To add. If we're helping save lives here, It's not a fruitless war. Just go and read up on some history... Look up the Spanish-American war..When were in Cuba. See how America,and Cuba both benefitted... THEN see the problem Fidel Castro caused when he came in. :-/

The Spanish-American war makes me think so much about this war we're in now.

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~Nessa

Cuba is doing so poorly now mainly because of US imposed trade sanctions. The Cuban refugees mostly believe in taking a hard line against Castro, so US politicians don't want to piss off that voting bloc and ease the sanctions. Personally I think it will take the death of Castro for the sanctions to be lifted. I'm not saying Castro is a saint; he kills or imprisons anyone who speaks out against him.

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quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Fact/Truth-Majority of military is conservative.

Yes, this is true. Your point on specifics? I was bringing up the point that the press was shunned from talking to anyone, esp. troops. Now granted, security reasons I understand. It just seems like everywhere Bush goes there's a lockdown on what the press can/can't do and can/can't say. Now this is FACT - many in the press are not too happy with how Bush has treated them, and this article seems no different.

quote:

Sorry,but I don't trust most of what the press says. When we were in the heat of the war, I watched Fox..mainly because there were reporters imbedded(sp?) with the troops. You could hear the real thing.

Oh, but you trust what Faux says? Well, that it explains it then:

http://www.sunspot.net/features/bal...tures-headlines

You really ought to try to get your news from other sources. There's a reason why many people call it "Faux News". Rupert Murdock is one of the biggest Republican party donors. Isin't kinda strange that all editors in his newspapers are conservative?

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Very happy, My father volunteered to serve the first time we were going over to Iraq,when Bush Sr. was in. He said he would be glad to do his job. He didn't get called,but he was talking to those in the foxholes.

As did my cousin and a few various friends of my family. Again, your point? I was pointing out here that there's a little more unhappiness amongst the troopers in this war than it seems, and perhaps a little more unhappiness than what the mainstream press often reports (let alone your favorite Faux News).

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Well I'll be blunt,I don't believe you.But, that's because I don't know you. I live in a very heavy military area. I'm surrounded by bases on all sides. Most of my family served in the military. ( Both of my great uncles ( are brothers ) faught in WWII.. My great uncle Charles faught on the front lines in Italy, My mothers three brothers all served in either the army or the navy, my mothers father served in the army, and my dad served in the USAF, My mother served in the USAF...Etc..) Every last person that I know in the military,and I've talked to are glad to see we're FINALLY going over there. I'm not just talking about the youngies here either. I'm talking about the people I met while at the pentagon with my father. Yea,that's right,not just Lt. Col here. Full Col. and Generals infact.

Wonderful Argument from Authority. Well, my father served his tour in Vietnam, my father in law served in Korea, my grandfather drove tanks in WW2, my cousin fought in the first Gulf War, and a number of my friends have fought in Kosovo and/or Gulf War 2. Oh yeah, I also grew up around military bases - McConnell AFB was just 5 miles from my old home, as was Boeing (any guesses which miserable hell hole I grew up in?). I now live 45 min. from Whiteman AFB where they store the Stealth Bombers. Ft. Leavenworth isin't too far either. Etc. etc. etc...

So again I ask, your point? What don't you believe? You didn't believe the source I gave you? It's a credible source, as is the information as to what Bush is doing to veterans. Surely the members in your family would know this, and if they don't, they certainly should be aware just how much Bush is scaling back their benefits.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Hmm,To add. If we're helping save lives here, It's not a fruitless war. Just go and read up on some history... Look up the Spanish-American war..When were in Cuba. See how America,and Cuba both benefitted... THEN see the problem Fidel Castro caused when he came in. :-/ The Spanish-American war makes me think so much about this war we're in now.

Funny how I keep thinking Vietnam. Funny how most others think that too...

Perhaps the wrong word - fruitless. Yes, we are saving lives. Yes, Saddam was an evil motherf$cker and a genocidal maniac. Yes, the world is a better place without him. However, this is a terrible argument to enter the war illegally:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Stor...1089158,00.html

Of course it was Richard Perle who said this, but it may as well have been Bush.

Besides, the point to go to war was because Iraq was an "imminent" threat. That's what Bush was trying to address in his SOU address last February, as what Powell was addressing when attempting to convince the UN last year. They were NOT making their cases for war because of Saddam's brutality to his own people, though it was a point to be made. Otherwise, we should be immediately invading about 12 other countries right now if that were the case now shouldn't we? There are other brutal dictators out there, what separates them from Saddam?

There was no imminent threat, as it's been proven countless times, and you notice how the tone of the war went from disarming his WMD to "Operation Freedom"? Gee, I wonder why?

The point I was making earlier is this: yes, the military is for the most part conservative. Yes, many, if not most support their Commander in Chief. That's usually how it is - the Chain of Command is of the upmost importance to the military. Questioning authority, esp. at times of war, is deeply discouraged. However, there are those in the military who have questioned why they are over there, and question all the politics that put them there in the first place.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00105.htm

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...