you're missing the point of my post. your immigration service (not to mention the security checks) cannot even administer the old regulations properly. It varies between every immigration officer, suggesting no-one, or very few, have any grasp of the real rules. if i was a terrorist I would be very confident of getting through regardless on new laws. security checks are equally random over there. I never get a decent check, despite my travel plans often meeting the criteria that most countries have for illegal activities, and a history in explosives. i get checked over in many places a lot more stringently than in USA.
as for the biometric data, that's only going to be on new passports. when mine comes up for renewal in another 7 years, then i might be worried. i doubt any government will force their people to pay for new passports if their existing one is still valid.

NYCtrancefan:

You joke about america being a police state. It's funny how blind you are to your actual rights freedoms being removed. Perhaps you should have a little peak at the patriot act. Yes, the USA is clearly not a police state, but you did loose a lot of privacy that you once had. Your hollowed untouchable constition has been shat on, what's next(the corner stone on which your nation is built)? You say people shouldn't visit america if they think it's a police state. Are you really so foolish that you'd want that? Would you rather your national deficit be 2 trillion rather than 1 trillion? You're living in a nation making enemies faster than friends. You make yourself look stupider than you need to by defending your nations abyssmal foreign policy.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan (Since Americans seem to be so idotic)In the words of the French Interior Secretary Nicolas Sarkozy, "it is better to have too much security and be criticised than too little and criticised" Don't worry tubby soon(by October) all visa waiver visitors from Europe and Australia will need a biometric(unique photo and fingerprint) passport issued by their own individual nation to visit America. Funny to see how many people are complaining when it comes to visiting the "Police State"

Regardless of my opinion of the US as the most dangerous nation for peace in the world today (together with his little friend, Israel) and as a general bully and oppressor of smaller nations, i'm not stupid.

I know the US is currently the center of economics and politics in the world. It is the world's most powerful nation, with the most powerful army, the most powerful economics and the most powerful political force. So of course i criticize the US, but that won't refrain me from visiting you (however, if i had to pass through that check, i would think twice).

And many people, like me, criticize the US, but still need to go there to do business for example. But i wouldn't live there. It's still a great country, but ruled by cowboys.

But remember this: Germany was twice the most powerful country in the world in the last century, and you know what happened then. I'm not saying that the US compares in any way politically or that you will start a world war. But you are burying yourselves in the ground, making enemies in every part of the world. Your so called friends will only be friends while you're powerful.

Big powerful imperialist nations come and go, that's why i gave the Germany example. China is growing rapidly and in a few years (20+) will be much more powerful than the US. If for some reason the US starts losing power/money/army then you will start to suffer the consequences of your obnoxious forein policy.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe NYCtrancefan: You joke about america being a police state. It's funny how blind you are to your actual rights freedoms being removed. Perhaps you should have a little peak at the patriot act. Yes, the USA is clearly not a police state, but you did loose a lot of privacy that you once had. Your hollowed untouchable constition has been shat on, what's next(the corner stone on which your nation is built)? You say people shouldn't visit america if they think it's a police state. Are you really so foolish that you'd want that? Would you rather your national deficit be 2 trillion rather than 1 trillion? You're living in a nation making enemies faster than friends. You make yourself look stupider than you need to by defending your nations abyssmal foreign policy.

Failsafe I will do my best to respectfully respond to your statements. I would like for you to name me one freedom as an American that I once had that I have lost, demonstrate to me exactly where the constitution has been dumped on, and staying away from America is indeed the best retaliation for those who cannot stand America and its horrific airport security policies. America is not in the business of making friends at the expense of its security and when I hear someone say a statement like America is making enemies faster than friends, it is usually based on a personal bias in the individual in relation to America that demonstrates itself in those particular words when used in a discussion. Not only that but you seem to be have confused the issues since when is O'Hare, LAX and JFK airports not in America, frame your commentary and response to me within the contexts of America's policy on documenting those who visit this nation through a 15sec process, I never once, not once defended America's "FOREIGN" policy. Show me where I defended America's foreign policy. Its funny how blind you are to having even an ounce of objective words in relation to the U.S. on this subject, instead utilizing generic phrases, factless assumptions and America is hated rhetoric that has been heard time and time again. Yet ironic how many people still visit the U.S. (and they aren't all businessmen) despite our oppressive government, according to you they should all be staying away from the nation with an abyssmal foreign policy

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Jan-09-2004 at 15:54

quote:

Originally posted by borron Regardless of my opinion of the US as the most dangerous nation for peace in the world today (together with his little friend, Israel) and as a general bully and oppressor of smaller nations, i'm not stupid. I know the US is currently the center of economics and politics in the world. It is the world's most powerful nation, with the most powerful army, the most powerful economics and the most powerful political force. So of course i criticize the US, but that won't refrain me from visiting you (however, if i had to pass through that check, i would think twice). And many people, like me, criticize the US, but still need to go there to do business for example. But i wouldn't live there. It's still a great country, but ruled by cowboys. But remember this: Germany was twice the most powerful country in the world in the last century, and you know what happened then. I'm not saying that the US compares in any way politically or that you will start a world war. But you are burying yourselves in the ground, making enemies in every part of the world. Your so called friends will only be friends while you're powerful. Big powerful imperialist nations come and go, that's why i gave the Germany example. China is growing rapidly and in a few years (20+) will be much more powerful than the US. If for some reason the US starts losing power/money/army then you will start to suffer the consequences of your obnoxious forein policy.

Once again this was not a foreign policy subject per say since this affects those who wish to gain entry to the U.S once on its soil. Answer this though borron How could the U.S. become weaker when you combine its current place in the world with Israel and thereby the Jewish secret body that exists only to maintain its world domination over the populous of Earth by proxy through American imperialism I am not ignorant of America's foreign policy history. Hence you think it was twisted I studied it with some pretty liberal ex hippie, draft dodger college professors might I add, who forced me to engage in such materials as Dr. Strangelove and derided the government at every chance.

I will take stock in one thing that unlike the Germany of Otto von Bismarck and Hitler or the clear imperialists overtones of Europe dating back to Portugal arriving with missionaries on the Gold Coast or modern day Ghana, to spread Christianity and then begin the slave trade that was started on the island of Madeira until it extended to Brazil(do they teach that in Portuguese schools by the way) or the British in India, the Germans in Namibia, the Europeans dividing up Africa, unlike all these true imperialists were, America is a democracy and thanks to our system of governance with the Executive, Legislative and Judicial bodies, George W. Bush has his limits that even he can't overstep when he eliminates one of those bodies of government or tries to then I'll scream bloody murder. Many of these "enemies" of the U.S. such as Iran's leadership, the Islamic extremists and the newfound European solidarity operate with differing interests of hatred, you can't please everyone. If people want to talk about exclusively U.S. foreign policy there are plenty of discussions on this forum about it, this topic however wasn't one.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Jan-09-2004 at 15:58

Here's your freedoms which have been erroded. It's funny that you accuse me of not being objective. Ever thought about opening your eyes to America changing around you?


Freedom of association: The government may monitor religious and political groups without evidence of criminal activity.


Right to liberty: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.


Freedom from unreasonable searches: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to aid terrorism investigation.


Freedom of speech: The government may prosecute librarians, telecommunication company officials and anyone else who reveals they have received a subpoena for records related to the terrorism investigation.


Right to legal representation: The government may monitor penal communications between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.


Right to a speedy and public trial: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.


Freedom of information: The government has closed once-public immigration hearings, secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist requests for public records under the Freedom of Information Act.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I will take stock in one thing that unlike the Germany of Otto von Bismarck and Hitler or the clear imperialists overtones of Europe dating back to Portugal arriving with missionaries on the Gold Coast or modern day Ghana, to spread Christianity and then begin the slave trade that was started on the island of Madeira until it extended to Brazil(do they teach that in Portuguese schools by the way) or the British in India, the Germans in Namibia, the Europeans dividing up Africa, unlike all these true imperialists were, America is a democracy and thanks to our system of governance with the Executive, Legislative and Judicial bodies, George W. Bush has his limits that even he can't overstep when he eliminates one of those bodies of government or tries to then I'll scream bloody murder. Many of these "enemies" of the U.S. such as Iran's leadership, the Islamic extremists and the newfound European solidarity operate with differing interests of hatred, you can't please everyone. If people want to talk about exclusively U.S. foreign policy there are plenty of discussions on this forum about it, this topic however wasn't one.

Of course they teach us that in school, in fact, they teach us history from our roots from the celts up to modern history.
What do they teach you in school? Pilgrims, cowboys, 1st 2nd ww, korean war, vietnam, iraq? Do they teach you "op. desert fox" in school? Here they do.

Of course the european past is filled with blood, and my predecessors were part of that. But unlike the US, our recent history isn't. Think of that.

BTW, what do you think of Guantanamo? Sure the prisioners there have freedom of speech, right of legal representation, all of the above
Oh, and it is american soil.

If you're fine with living with your liberties strangled, then it's your problem. If i was an american i would be a left-wing activist i'm sure.
Anyway, i enjoy very much living in my little, kind of second-world country. We have no terrorists groups, no foreign enemies, low crime rates and an excelent climate Our greatest battle is the liberalization of the abortion!

Last edited by borron on Jan-09-2004 at 17:29

I do not support Guantanamo Bay at all, I feel that those who are there should be dealt with in a judicial manner that entitles them to know exactly what are their charges for being held and given fair representation for any charges against them. On the other hand I don't feel it is purposeful for the U.S. to maintain Guantanamo to serve as more cannon fodder for the critics, I have always contended that the high ranking detainees should be dealt with and the rest sent back to their respective nations.

The thing that I see is that everyone around the world has some knowledge of American society via BBC Radio or Radio France International in developing world countries, via television in the respective nations around the world and via other media sources internet included. It seems that many are left with the impression that you are kidnapped off the streets of America taken into detention and never heard from again, every word that George Bush mentions is published all over the international media outlets. I know this because I examine newspapers and Internet Broadcasts from around the world such as DW-TV(Germany), CBC and CTV(Canada), Radio Netherland, Radio Sweden, NRK Forsida (Norway), etc,etc. Everyday there is a negative reflecting newstory on America in some of these outlets, negative in the aspect that it has a point of view to get across, such as what do you make of Bush's policy on immigration, or his announcement of a Mission to Mars or is the U.S. government right to spend money on space research. All of these things seem so slanted to reflect a particular viewpoint, George Bush cannot serve more than two terms and eventually him and his administration will be out of power, I take heed in knowing that I still live in a nation that offers opportunities that nowhere else can, I say this as an immigrant to America.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

NYCtrancefan: Shall assume your failure to address the post regarding the removal of American freeoms means you have now seen the light?

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe Here's your freedoms which have been erroded. It's funny that you accuse me of not being objective. Ever thought about opening your eyes to America changing around you? Freedom of association: The government may monitor religious and political groups without evidence of criminal activity. Right to liberty: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. Freedom from unreasonable searches: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to aid terrorism investigation. Freedom of speech: The government may prosecute librarians, telecommunication company officials and anyone else who reveals they have received a subpoena for records related to the terrorism investigation. Right to legal representation: The government may monitor penal communications between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes. Right to a speedy and public trial: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial. Freedom of information: The government has closed once-public immigration hearings, secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist requests for public records under the Freedom of Information Act.

Let us assume Failsafe that what you say is indeed correct for all of these new measures, I feel very confident that as an American I have the judicial system and the Supreme Court as well as the different civil liberties organizations that are committed to ensuring that the rights of Americans are protected even in the most dubious of circumstances, case and point Jose Padilla (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2037444.stm)

In a landmark victory for constitutional protections and the separation of powers in the post-9/11 era, a panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals issued a 2-1 ruling barring the president from declaring a U.S. citizen an “enemy combatant” without congressional authorization (key point). In a decision likely to influence another case on enemy combatants before the Supreme Court case, the federal appeals court ordered the government to release U.S. citizen Jose Padilla from military custody in thirty days, with the option of transferring Padilla to civilian authorities for a criminal trial. The ruling marks a growing judicial backlash against unfettered presidential authority during a period of war. The ruling couldn’t have come at a better time. With controversy over the status of Guantanamo detainees and the PATRIOT Act growing to a feverish pitch, it’s about time the Constitution gained a voice, and an arm strong enough to back it up.

Maybe it is because I like the majority of Americans have not gotten myself into trouble linked to terrorism that I do not see the bigger picture. In application of these rules to regular criminal defendants and even the few Americans linked to terrorism, George Bush will run into a brick wall from the Supreme Court on the issue of detaining someone without representation for an extended period of time. Utlimately I feel even our Supreme Court will rule that the detainees @ Guantanamo must be represented in some form.

It is because of our system of Executive, Legislative and Judicial branch of governance that I feel confident in this nation. It may not be perfect but it has worked for generations righting wrongs in innumerable facets of American society, it will not fail now because of one leader because even he cannot alter the Constitution for his own purposes

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Jan-09-2004 at 20:29

So the supreme court ruled in favour for jose. How does that have any effect on the actual changes to your laws? The supreme court and the ACLU have failed to protect the constituion from the patriot act have they not?