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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka

Flat tax sounds nice, but will never happen. I've found myself warming up to the idea of a consumption tax, which I guess is like sales tax, but on a higher level. You pay taxes on what you consume--you wanna be a greedy bastard with a 200 foot yacht and a private jet? No problem, but the more you consume, the more you will end up paying in taxes--seems fair, right? One issue I see with that though is akin to what Ahnold bitched about in Caulifornia--being taxed on everything. The gov't might get so greedy with such a tax system that you can't do anything without having to pay a little extra for it. Gives the goverment a little too much power to get their hands in people's pockets.


Personally I like the idea of a consumption tax (are they called VAT taxes?). I think that certain goods should fall under the class of luxury goods (based upon the type of item and the price). You could then have a fixed matrix for the consumption tax and therefore you don't have government directly meddling in the specfiic goods you purchase. But hey, which is worse, a government taxing your income or a government taxing your consumption?

quote:

I don't think people will ever be happy with the tax code--it's just one of those things that is a fact of life. Death and taxes--deal with it. Just don't give me some shit about the government having a right to 50% of my income simply because I'm a bigger earner. Hell, I think 33% is a good cap. I mean giving more than 1/3 of everything I make to the government seems absurd, yet when I look at my pay stub, that's already what's happening. What's worse is when I get a bonus for performance--something that's based solely on my ability to do my job very well--the government hits me with a tax rate that's WELL over 35%. That strikes me as unfair. Why should the government have a clain to a bigger chunk of money that I earned purely by my own individual efforts?


Lol yea part of my pay is based on performance as well. I cry myself to sleep looking at how much that is taxed. I mean christ, it's not like I'm winning the lottery or something.

quote:

Damnit, Damnit, Damnit!!! Why you go bustin' my chops everytime? How da hell am I gonna get a job when I can barely read?!?


You want a job??? I'll give you one. Your job is to build Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanies (commonly referred to as tin foil hats), in preparation for the mind control programs that are to be unleashed upon us! Instructions can be found by going to this site:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Make sure you aren't being followed!!!

Old Post Jan-16-2004 17:25  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by occrider

You want a job??? I'll give you one. Your job is to build Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanies (commonly referred to as tin foil hats), in preparation for the mind control programs that are to be unleashed upon us! Instructions can be found by going to this site:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Make sure you aren't being followed!!!


Just as I thought, a Republican ploy. No way would I ever want to make these hats. This is just what you'd want me to do, Dick.

These hats aren't for deflection.

These hats are for AMPLIFICATION!!!!!

It's a trap set out by the GOP, I know it. Nice try, but I think I'll stick to my current volunteer work of testing out unmarked land mines. You should try giving to society more through volunteering, like me.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jan-16-2004 17:43  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Just as I thought, a Republican ploy. No way would I ever want to make these hats. This is just what you'd want me to do, Dick.

These hats aren't for deflection.

These hats are for AMPLIFICATION!!!!!

It's a trap set out by the GOP, I know it. Nice try, but I think I'll stick to my current volunteer work of testing out unmarked land mines. You should try giving to society more through volunteering, like me.


WHHAAA ...??? Dammit, FOILED! (har har har) Who told you??? That O'Neil guy???

/goes off to concoct new and improved GOP scheme.

Old Post Jan-16-2004 18:05  United States
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DaveSZ
When The Levee Breaks



Registered: Jan 2003
Location: ATX

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Just as I thought, a Republican ploy. No way would I ever want to make these hats. This is just what you'd want me to do, Dick.

These hats aren't for deflection.

These hats are for AMPLIFICATION!!!!!

It's a trap set out by the GOP, I know it. Nice try, but I think I'll stick to my current volunteer work of testing out unmarked land mines. You should try giving to society more through volunteering, like me.



Hey look at it this way; our mind control tin foil hats would go well with our duct tape and plastic sheeting VX nerve gas contingency shelters!

Like I told Sara, we must be prepared for Y2K.05 when all the computers that have been off for five years will be turned on and think it's 1905! That's when the world will end as we know it - unless we're prepared that is!

"Personally I also keep my AK47 with 200 rounds of ammo ready for any attacking raghead hordes. Remember they'll hit us when we're down!"

^^
(How many people on a gun nut message board I sometimes read think)


___________________
http://www.discoboomer.com/forums/

Old Post Jan-16-2004 18:19 
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squirrelly
The Phun Nun



Registered: Oct 2003
Location: In the Shower
Talking For Dave

Dave asked me to post the essay that I have recently written. So I shall:

Intangible Reckless Political Tactics

Citizens of America have been swayed by the smooth talking presidential candidate for 2004 named Howard Dean. Dean’s predominant ambition is to persuade the nation to elect him for president. However, his campaign tactics are far from subtle, with his principal foundation relying on the abhorrence of the current President George W. Bush. His address’ to the nation focus on what the existent president is executing inequitably, and not upon his own strategies to improve the American Government. Deans other primary campaign tactic is to attack fellow election candidates. Thankfully, American’s are beginning to catch on to Howard Deans ludicrous game plan.

Glen Johnson, a writer for the Boston Globe, partakes in one of the first gradual negative assessments of former Vermont governor Dean in his article “Kerry, on offense, accuses Dean of flip flopping on issues” from the December 7th issue of 2003. Johnson’s target audience are close 2004 election advocates, regardless of their preference to political party. Johnson manages to show how Dean’s spokeswoman, Tricia Enright, smoothly eludes responding to the direct accusations of Senator John F. Kerry of Dean altering his standpoint oppositions with “’To borrow a phrase from John
Kerry’s favorite philosopher, Yogi Berra, when John Kerry saw the fork in the low-road, he took it.’”(Johnson 1). Gradually, representatives from many organizations are realizing that Deans declarations are open ended and without true resoluteness.
Johnson quoted Sarah Brady, the gun control advocate, when she remarked on Deans status towards her own organization. “’As far as I’m concerned, he obviously does not understand or know the issue [state-by-state gun control laws] at all,’ Brady said. ‘He
just makes broad statements to appeal to a wide range of people’ (Johnson 2). Unfortunately, the Boston Globe does not reach the entire nation with it’s undaunted journalism, so Glen Johnson’s exceptional prestige when employing a more diverse opinion will probably vanish among various archives.

New York Times writers Jodi Wilgoren and Edward Wyatt started off the new year with the article “In Shift, Dean Starts Watching His Words”, another analysis challenging Deans sudden refusal to freely address the public and reporters. Wilgoren and Wyatt noted that Dean representatives conveniently situated outside of a General Wesley K. Clark campaign event handed out leaflets assailing the General. The revelation of Dean’s scheme to thwart Clarks campaign during the event opened the eyes of the many citizens of America that had a falsified vision of Dean as just and benevolent. Dean’s national spokesman, Jay Carson, became fixated with the supposed significance of whom Clark had voted for in past elections. Clark, not a representative, responded with “After the Vietnam War, the Democratic Party and some of the presidential candidates seemed to be wobbling all over the map on being strong for America...So I voted for people who would take care of the country” (2) Wilgoren and Wyatt report “While Dr. Dean continues to draw impressive crowds at nearly every stop, he has also begun to face daily questions from voters about some of his recent statements and his vulnerability to President Bush” (2). Subsequently, Dean suddenly halted all address’ to the public.

Journalists WIlliam Branigin, Dan Balz and Ceci Connolly attempt to induce the opinions of Dean from other presidential candidates in the article “Clark Rebuts Rivals’ Attacks as ‘Old-Style Politics’” released in the January 14th 2004 edition of Washington Post. The article attributed to the annoyance of Dean campaign tactics. Washington Post attempts to target all audiences by bringing in multiple candidates sentiments on the magnitude of inappropriate campaigning. As specified earlier, one of Deans preeminate hype’s rely on the antipathy and hostility towards Bush. Washington Post brings to observation that Gephardt and others are utilizing Deans own platform against him, by remarking things such as “there’s no place for provocation in American diplomacy. As Democrats, we all feel anger, but these times demand more than heat and emotion. They demand the best in all of us”(2). Washington Post then immediately superseding added Kerry’s comment of “I ask you to vote for answers not anger”(2).

All three articles are bestowed in an analytical manner towards the campaign endeavors of Howard Dean, which was long awaited by the citizens of America who saw through his pseudo pretensions. The reports toy with the reality that Dean rarely ever speaks for himself and the other aspirants do, without denominating it directly. The distribution of information on Dean’s campaign was unbiased; however, Dean places himself in a rather oafish standing with his style of hypocritical accusations. It was only a matter of time until his preposterous tactics would be denunciated and he would look like the cretin he really is.


___________________
aka Tits McGee
aka Chesty LaRue
aka Busty St. Claire

Old Post Jan-16-2004 20:27  Poland
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DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
I agree that our teachers should be paid more, and it would raise the overall level of education for those who want to put forth the effort to actually learn.


Heh, I don't think money is the primary problem for the US education. Many poorer countries invest much less into pre-university education, and still produce people with higher amount of knowledge than the average US student. The key to solving this problem is to highten the educational requirements to force the damn kids to get off their lazy asses and start reading the damn books more.


___________________
1+1=10

Old Post Jan-16-2004 21:05  Croatia
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Heh, I don't think money is the primary problem for the US education. Many poorer countries invest much less into pre-university education, and still produce people with higher amount of knowledge than the average US student. The key to solving this problem is to highten the educational requirements to force the damn kids to get off their lazy asses and start reading the damn books more.


YES!!! Some accountability! Stop pampering the spoiled brats with all their bs "angst" and "harsh" lifestyles. I'm a fan

Old Post Jan-16-2004 21:17  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
YES!!! Some accountability! Stop pampering the spoiled brats with all their bs "angst" and "harsh" lifestyles. I'm a fan


Hey, I'm all for accountability. But I don't think the model that we used for NCLB was a sound one, considering:

quote:
Gains in Houston Schools: How Real Are They?
By Diana Jean Schemo and Ford Fesseden
New York Times

Wednesday 03 December 2003

As a student at Jefferson Davis High here, Rosa Arevelo seemed the "Texas miracle" in motion. After years of classroom drills, she passed the high school exam required for graduation on her first try. A program of college prep courses earned her the designation "Texas scholar."

At the University of Houston, though, Ms. Arevelo discovered the distance between what Texas public schools called success and what she needed to know. Trained to write five-paragraph "persuasive essays" for the state exam, she was stumped by her first writing assignment. She failed the college entrance exam in math twice, even with a year of remedial algebra. At 19, she gave up and went to trade school.

"I had good grades in high school, so I thought I could do well in college," Ms. Arevelo said. "I thought I was getting a good education. I was shocked."

In recent years, Texas has trumpeted the academic gains of Ms. Arevelo and millions more students largely on the basis of a state test, the Texas Assessment of Academic Skills, or TAAS. As a presidential candidate, Texas's former governor, George W. Bush, contended that Texas's methods of holding schools responsible for student performance had brought huge improvements in passing rates and remarkable strides in eliminating the gap between white and minority children.

The claims catapulted Houston's superintendent, Rod Paige, to Washington as education secretary and made Texas a model for the country. The education law signed by President Bush in January 2002, No Child Left Behind, gives public schools 12 years to match Houston's success and bring virtually all children to academic proficiency.

But an examination of the performance of students in Houston by The New York Times raises serious doubts about the magnitude of those gains. Scores on a national exam that Houston students took alongside the Texas exam from 1999 to 2002 showed much smaller gains and falling scores in high school reading.

Compared with the rest of the country, Houston's gains on the national exam, the Stanford Achievement Test, were modest. The improvements in middle and elementary school were a fraction of those depicted by the Texas test and were similar to those posted on the Stanford test by students in Los Angeles.

Over all, a comparison of the performance of Houston students who took the Stanford exam in 2002 and in 1999 showed most did not advance in relation to their counterparts across the nation. More than half of them either remained in the same place or lost ground in reading and math.

"Is it better or worse than what's going on anywhere else?" said Edward H. Haertel, a professor of education at Stanford University. "On average it looks like it's not." Stanford University has no relationship to the test.

In an interview, Dr. Paige defended Texas's system, saying that it had gradually raised the standards for success over the last 20 years. "Texas measures far more than minimal skills," he said. "The bar is far above what other districts use."

But questions about Houston's accomplishments are increasing. In June, the Texas Education Agency found rampant undercounting of school dropouts. Houston school officials have also been accused of overstating how many high school graduates were college bound and of failing to report violent crimes in schools to state authorities.

The Houston officials strenuously defend the district's record.

Kathryn Sanchez, head of assessment for Houston's schools, said students were doing well on both the Texas exam and the Stanford test, given the city's large number of poor and minority students. Ms. Sanchez said that Houston students had also done well on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, a federally mandated test widely referred to as "the nation's report card."

On that test, fourth graders in Houston and New York outdid children in four other cities in writing, to score at the national average. Fourth graders in New York and Houston also led children in other cities in reading, yet fell short of the national average. Of all six cities, however, Houston excluded the most children with limited English from taking the national assessment, and some researchers suggest that removing such students may have helped raise Houston's score.

But in interviews, Houston school officials acknowledge that the progress in the elementary grades peters out in high school. About 13,600 eighth graders in 1998 dwindled to fewer than 8,000 high school graduates. Though 88 percent of Houston's student body is black and Latino, only a few hundred minority students leave high school "college ready," according to state figures.

Miracle or Mirage?
With its own exam to measure pupil achievement, Texas managed to show educational progress over the last decade on a scale rarely, if ever, achieved before. But as the state's paradigm for school accountability became law for the rest of the nation, the authenticity of Texas's accomplishments has become a major question in education policy.

The Stanford test provides a useful contrast to the state exam, at least for Houston. More than 75,000 students in grades 3 through 8 and grade 10 took the state exam as well as the Stanford test from 1999 to 2002. The Times analyzed performances on these tests, excluding students in special education, and had educational testing experts review the results. The data were obtained under the state's open records act by George Scott, president of the Tax Research Association of Houston and Harris County, a taxpayers group.

"I don't think there was a miracle," said Robert L. Linn, co-director of the Center for Research on Evaluation, Standards and Student Testing at the University of Colorado, who reviewed the calculations. "There were some good positive results, but not extraordinary results like TAAS seemed to show."

The modest improvements in Houston have implications for the national debate. "If you anticipate that you can have the gains shown on TAAS — and that's what No Child Left Behind would be requiring in many states — that's not going to be likely to happen, based on this," Dr. Linn said.

The Times analysis of performance on the Stanford Achievement Test and the Texas exam shows this:

Houston students improved from 1999 to 2002 in most grades, but at only a fraction of the rate portrayed by the state exam. Using a widely employed statistical measure that allows different kinds of tests to be compared called effect size, the gains in the average scores on the Stanford test were about a third of the average gain in the TAAS scores.
Even students with the poorest skills posted high scores on the Texas test. In reading, a passing score of 70 on the test was the equivalent to scores below the 30th percentile in national ranking on the Stanford test in every grade. In 10th grade, passing the state exam was equivalent to the fifth percentile in the national ranking.
While the Houston gains on the Stanford test in some grades were large enough to be considered significant in educational testing, the city was not making much headway when compared with national averages. Some 57 percent of Houston students who took the math test in 1999 and 2002, and 51 percent of those who took the reading test, saw their standing relative to children around the country either fall or remain the same.
On the Stanford tests, the average reading scores for Houston students of all races in grades 9 through 11 have actually dropped since 1999. By contrast, the reading scores for 10th graders on the Texas exam — the only high school grade in which the state test is given — showed a large gain over the same period.
The achievement gap between whites and minorities, which Houston authorities have argued has nearly disappeared on the Texas exam, remains huge on the Stanford test. The ranking of the average white student was 36 points higher than that of the average black student in 1999 and fell slightly, to 34 points, in 2002.
"This says that the progress on TAAS is probably overstated, possibly by quite a margin," said Daniel Koretz of the Harvard School of Education, who also reviewed The Times's analysis, "And when all is said and done, Houston looks average or below average."

Tougher Texas Test
While Texas minority students have made gains on the federal government's mandated national assessment test of reading and math, they were already largely ahead of the average scores of minority students from around the country before the current Texas accountability system began in 1993.

In Houston, the share of college-bound high school graduates that the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board deemed "college ready" fell to 28.5 percent, or 977 students in 2001, from 33.7 percent, or 1,155 students, in 2000, according to the latest figures available. The board counts only graduates who seek admission to public institutions of higher education in Texas, and says another 10 to 15 percent may seek admission elsewhere.

But many here saw the replacement of the Texas exam last spring with a tougher exam as the most stinging indictment of the test. On the new test, the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills, or TAKS, race gaps widened, and passing rates fell.

Officials here now say that TAAS was only a test of "minimal skills," paving the way for ratcheting up standards with a new exam.

Dr. Paige contends that the TAAS and Stanford tests could not be compared because the Texas test gauges mastery of the Texas curriculum while the Stanford test measures a more general notion of what children should know in a given grade.

But education researchers disagreed.

"These two tests ought to be telling the same story, and they're telling different stories," said Dr. Haertel, of Stanford University.

Dr. Paige also argued that statistical anomalies in the results on the Texas test made comparisons impossible. But testing experts who examined those anomalies said that, if anything, they would reduce the disparities between the two tests.

Watching Children Struggle
In one way or another, Jo Arevelo, Rosa's mother, has watched each of her children struggle through an educational system that was focused tightly on producing high test scores on state exams.

Last summer, Ms. Arevelo tutored her youngest daughter, 10-year-old Angelica, in spelling. Because the state exam does not test spelling, Angelica's teacher never got to it, Ms. Arevelo said one recent afternoon.

Earlier that day, her son, Joseph, took the preparatory exam for the SAT college entrance test, but like many other children that day, he left the exam in frustration — mystified by vocabulary words like parallelism and euphemism, words he had never encountered in school.

Patricia Anderson, a veteran social studies teacher in Houston, said she was not surprised. Noticing that her high school students could not answer questions after reading passages in their textbooks, she began giving them a vocabulary test at the fourth grade level. Typically, she said, "They flunk it."

"We're all very very frustrated, because all these great scores are coming out of the elementary schools, and when they get to high school it's not happening," Ms. Anderson said. "They do not have the skills they need."

It was not always like this. Many parents welcomed the accountability system that the Houston district pioneered in the 1980's and early 1990's. It was a way, they reasoned, to force schools in poor neighborhoods not to write off their children.

And in some places, it seemed to work, said Rene Barrios, lead organizer for the Metropolitan Organization, a chapter of a group that monitors public services. But in many other places, Ms. Barrios said, the system became the single most important measure of school success and the test itself, for many teachers, became the curriculum. "The whole system has been taken over by the test," she said.

Rosa Arevelo, who graduated from Davis High with a B average, tried to keep pace in college. She made flash cards to help her remember what she studied. She had never learned how to take notes in high school, so at her lectures in college, she took down everything the teacher said.

Her textbook looks as if it is filled with neon lights: entire paragraphs are highlighted in bars of bright pink and yellow. In the unrelenting array of information, she could not tell what mattered.

"When you get to college," she said, "you're just supposed to know. But nobody ever taught us."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...DAB0994DB404482


In essence, I firmly believe NCLB combined with school vouchers is the means of the GOP to sqeeze public school systems to the point of non-existence (at least the teacher unions), and thereby allowing privatization of schools to come forth.

In short, I think their plan is f$cked up.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jan-16-2004 21:40  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
YES!!! Some accountability! Stop pampering the spoiled brats with all their bs "angst" and "harsh" lifestyles. I'm a fan


I couldn't agree with you more on the accountability issues--there needs to be more personal responsibility and accountability in our U.S. society as a whole.

I thought Bush's original plan sounded pretty good, maybe public schools just put the bar too low in some districts, or maybe some private schools are just pushing students harder and faster...I dunno. It sounds good to give a school a chance to meet some standards and if they fail after a set number attempts, they lose some funding--it gives them motivation to get their act together.

Then again, perhaps the problem is more related to a certain number of students who don't receive poor parenting, or perhaps have some other personal problem that results in their being a drag on the school. Maybe they're a ruffian from the wrong side of the tracks, or some poor inner city kid who stepped right out of an episode of Boston Public. This points to a fairly obvious fact that the parents (d'uh) aren't doing a good enough job for whatever their reason may be(perhaps they are a single mother just scraping by, could be it's some ultra-rich kid that can't function in regular society, who knows--it's starting to sound like The Breakfast Club).

It's still worth pursuing a way to better compensate teachers. I believe that paying them higher salaries will probably result in some better qualified professors entering the teaching market, thus creating a bigger, more competitive teaching job market due to it's relative attractiveness to other professions. Society needs to make teaching a more noble profession.

In the end, I think we need to focus on all accounts. Improve the quality of our teachers, but at the same time push for better parenting, I dunno, make a public website that parents can use as a resource to help them be better parents. Proper parenting is certainly no easy task, and if you are determined to spend government dollars to create a vastly accessible resource for parents who want to get with the program, what better way would there be to do it since almost every household in the country has a computer and most have Internet access?? Hell, maybe they do have such a site and I just don't know about it! Who would be responsible creating the data for the web resource? Hire a think tank with rotating positions of well revered, qualified people to ensure a standard is maintained that keeps current with society's advancement.

This is starting to sound like Brave New World(a bit utopian), maybe it's not such a great idea! I jest.

Seriously though, I also liked Bush's plan because it was supposed to give more rights to the states, which I think is generally a good thing(diffusion of power never bothered me, it beats having the one all-powerful Big Brother!). I guess in the end it ended up sounding like a business strategy popularized by Jack Welch at GE--that of cutting the non-producing business segments for the betterment of overall performance. He is, after all, "The MBA" President.

I guess part of the failure of it is that in the real world it's a lot harder to implement those kinds of decisions when you've got to deal with a squabbling congress and millions of people.



Phew! What a rant. Forgive me!

Old Post Jan-16-2004 23:42  United States
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malek
drinks your milkshake!



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Montréal

i was under the impression that moore wasn't endorsing him but merely saying that he's the lesser evil.


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Old Post Jan-16-2004 23:49 
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NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

Although I will admit the problem with our education system is multi-faceted, I would like to point out that the US spends less of its GNP on education than any other major industrialized nation. It also spends the most on mentally disabled students and the least on gifted students. Call me heartless, but where are our priorities there?

Thanks to Philip K. Howard's great book "The Death of Common Sense" for those figures.

Last edited by NeoPhono on Jan-17-2004 at 00:33

Old Post Jan-16-2004 23:57  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by ahlamalek
i was under the impression that moore wasn't endorsing him but merely saying that he's the lesser evil.


From the piece that Moore wrote, you'd think he was teabagging Dean as he wrote the article!

Old Post Jan-16-2004 23:57  United States
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