quote:

Originally posted by Vesa I agree that it was rude of Europeans to insult Middle-Easterners in such a way Well, I admit that I've seen a few Finnish artists make tasteless works of art, too, but they were mostly directed at ourselves, not other ethnicities.

Very much so, a remark that I made that the Europeans should learn manners should be only exmplified by my background - Israelis are clearly no where near the most mannered people in the world, quiet a long shot away actually. But even the Israelis would not go to the trouble to invite a foreign diplomat to expressly insult him and not apologize for the incident had they had.

I have no problem with the artwork.. I wouldn't of given it a second thought if it were in a museum in Stockholm. But the fact that it was presented to a DIPLOMAT of the Israelis for a conference on genocide is without excuse. Had it been simpy an error or overlooked, the Swedes should have automatically apologized for their ignorance and carelessness, not insisted the reaction of their guest was unwarrented and ignore the whole issue.

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quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew ... this makes israelis reputation much better, they seem so willing to negotiate and not use force

LOL

The article do not say anything about the artists use of symbolism in his work of art, and now that it has left his workshop I guess it really only matters how individuals interpret it. For me I can see two lines of reasoning, depending on whether the blood represents the blood of innocent Isrealis or Palestinians. In case of the former, the artwork would portray the irony of a single person (the bomber) being elevated to martyrdom at the cost of innocents. In the latter case, it would be a message along the lines of: "These bombers are only the top of the iceberg. They are the visible manifestations of the suffering of innocent palestinians."
As the artist is Jewish I would assume that the interpretation is the first one, and according to the "analogies" in Yoepus' post, so does he. In this case I totally fail to see the offense this artwork poses to Israelis. In case the artwork has the latter meaning, I might see why an Israeli government representative wouldn't like watching it, but I don't think that it represents such a grave offense that warrants mindless vandalism.


On another note, I noted somewhere (it's not in the article anymore?) that the Israelis' chief requirement for participating in the conference on genocide was that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was not mentioned. How is that for confession of having a problem. Consider if my condition for going to a conference on bestial killings was that we didn't debate what I did yesterday night?

The Swedish ambassador should be invited to an Israeli exhibition showing Anna Lind's pic teared up and smashed into a blood filled tub. Freedom of speech, my ass.

The fact that you make Wasa Bread and Ikea furniture, and that you have lots blonde chicks doesnt give you the right to insult other nations.

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quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant The Swedish ambassador should be invited to an Israeli exhibition showing Anna Lind's pic teared up and smashed into a blood filled tub. Freedom of speech, my ass.

May I remind you that the artist is an Israeli born Jewish man (Dror Feiler) - no doubt feels lucky to have the freedom for his art that would not have been granted back home.

I agree with trancaholic here, that work of art is not necessarily a glorification of that woman. More like a sort of critique of her being glorified for murdering civilians.

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If anyone is interested, this arcitle from debka adds some more information on that issue, and yes it is not a 100% balanced source, but i think it's interesting and eye opening.


DEBKAfile Special Analysis

January 17, 2004, 9:34 PM (GMT+02:00)

An undiplomatic act by Israel’s ambassador to Sweden has switched the spotlight on a virulent strain of anti-Semitism sweeping West Europe that draws its moral legitimacy from demonizing the Jewish state. What better symbol of this hybrid object of hate than the exhibit whose plug ambassador Zvi Mazel furiously pulled?

The exhibit consists of the photo of the female Palestinian suicide bomber who blew 21 Israelis to their deaths in a Haifa restaurant on October 4; it is planted on a boat floating serenely on a large pool of red water. Labeled “Snow White”, it was shown in an exhibition that opened Friday night, January 16, at Stockholm’s Museum of National Antiquities, part of an upcoming conference on genocide hosted by the Swedish government.

After wrecking the exhibit and calling it “a monstrosity and an affront to the grieving families,” the Israeli ambassador was hustled out of the museum and informed he would be summoned to the Swedish foreign ministry next Monday to explain his actions.

In Jerusalem, the Israeli foreign ministry official Ran Curiel called the Swedish ambassador to warn him that if the offensive exhibit is not removed, Israel will reconsider its attendance at the conference. Sweden, he said, would not be allowed to hide behind the principle of artistic freedom to justify terrorist murders of Israeli citizens.

A diplomatic storm had blown up in hours.

The designers happened to be an ex-Israeli Swede called Dror Feiler and his Swedish wife Gunilla Skoeld Feiler. Dror is president of a group called “Jews for Palestinian Peace.”

Clearly, they neither knew nor cared that the red pool represented Jewish and Arab blood – both Jews and Arabs were murdered in the restaurant by innocent “Snow White.” The bloody symbol they used inevitably recalls the fictional blood libels drummed up by European anti-Semites as the pretext for medieval pogroms. In modern-day Sweden, the purported Christian boy victim has been replaced by a real-life Palestinian suicidal killer.

The angry ambassador was backed to the hilt by his boss, foreign minister Silvan Shalom - more unexpectedly by former prime minister Ehud Barak, who said he understands the emotions the exhibit aroused in the diplomat, but confessed he cannot fathom Israelis like Feiler who efface themselves at European feet.

The to-do in Stockholm occurred on the day that Pope John Paul II invited Israel’s two chief rabbis to the Vatican for the first time to discuss the tide of anti-Semitism besetting Europe. Crucifixes were taken off the walls of the papal audience chamber as a gesture of respect to the guests. But did the historic meeting have any concrete results? Not immediately.

Heads of the European Union and its members talk constantly about combating the blight of anti-Semitism but the only action they have taken is to shelve a report they themselves commissioned because it pointed to Islamic and Palestinian agitators as leading culprits.

Israel has not done much either. When Miki Theodorakis branded the Jews “the root of the world’s evil,” the Greek government, while refraining from entering the controversy over freedom of speech versus racial incitement, made the gesture of finally introducing a Holocaust day on the 2003 national calendar, suddenly noticing that 90 percent of Greek Jews had perished in Nazi concentration camps in World War II. However, in Israel, no banking or financial institution has ever responded actively to comments made by the Dutch wife of the president of the European Central Bank last year that “Israel is worse than the Nazis,” and “the rich Jewish lobby in America is responsible for the Palestinians’ plight.” ” (“Jews” and “Israelis” are interchangeable when it suits their denigrators.)

The recent poll in which a majority of Europeans canvassed described Israel as the biggest threat to world peace likewise went by without response. In fact, shortly after its publication, Israel’s deputy prime minister and minister of industry, Ehud Olmert, bowed to the EU’s demand to add special markings to Israeli products manufactured across the Green Line in order to help European consumers boycott them.

As for Sweden, after the Palestinians embarked on their 2000 confrontation with Israel, more than one voice urged the Nobel Prize committee to recall the peace prize awarded jointly to the late Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres and Yasser Arafat from… Peres.

If Israel were to follow the European example, its ministers, senior officials and high court judges would tomorrow morning hand in the Swedish Volvo automobiles which are standard Israeli VIP issue and trade them for cars made in other countries. There is nothing, moreover, to stop the heads of the Jewish Agency advising Jews around the world to boycott Volvo, SKF and Ikea, in the same way that many American consumers spontaneously blacked French wines and cheese in response for French hostility to the Iraq War.

European democracies like Sweden might then have the necessary incentive to finally decide how far freedom of expression or art may be indulged when blood libels against Jewish citizens are published freely on European Web sites and exhibited publicly in their national museums. Who will draw the line on freedoms used to license incitement to mass murder?

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Tito, both you and trancaholic have misinterperted the artwork, your intepertations would perhaps a part to bear if it were not for one small thing - the picture of the suicide bomber has her smiling in happiness. You must also realize the name the "artist" chose for the exhibit - "Snow White and the Maddness of truth". Snow White is a pure innocent virgin and he "artist" lets us know here Maddness is true - defintely not a critique

My interpertation of the art is quiet simple, you have a smiling picture of a Suicide Bomber floating in a WHITE boat over a pool of blood. She is floating above the killing in peace and happiness over the blood she has spilled.


The fact that the author is Jewish or Israeli has no bearing on his political or artistic views. There are all type of Jews from fanatical settlers, to fanatical anti-jewish Jews - alla Marx. I could have cared less if this "art" was made by a Jew, a Swede, or a Palestinian, the message is quiet clear. The Jewish artist is a VERY staunch lefty in the Israeli political specturm, against the occupation, and obviously very pro-palestinian. It goes to show that sterotypes do not make a man. Just because a man is Jewish or Israeli does not mean they think a certain way or act in a certain way. I can't belive you guys are so racist to belive in such sterotypes.

And just so you know in Israel you could also have an exhibit like this, there is free speech and free artistic expression. However, if were to be displayed publicly, there would be a loud public outcry and the musuem would probably remove it from show. The fact that a museum removes an exhibit does not mean there is no freedom of speech or free artistic expression... it simply confronts the reality that not everyone considers the same thing "art". Some messages, that suggest killing scores of innocent civilians so you may float above the violence and madness to achieve peace of mind and happiness simply have no place.


Perhaps the Swedish government can not "censor" the exhibit, put it can exert its influence, and use public pressure to bring the museum to a very good understanding.

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We often hear Europe say that its not anti-Semitic or people are just being labelled that because they are being critical, I however believe that the undertones of anti-Israeli opinions have entered into the mindset of many in Europe as a viewpoint of all Jews. I still am struggling to see the significance of a pool of red paint(blood) with a boat floating in it and a picture of a suicide bomber hoisted on the mast. Truly a disgusting representation of artistic creativity, when the Israeli diplomat was going to be there. While I support the concept of a Palestinian state I could never endorse, appreciate or rationalise the acts of such individuals who kill other innocent people. Unless you accept the concept of an eye for an eye.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus For you Swedes: Imagine your chief diplomat was invited to attend a conference on WWII in Israel. Attending a museum in honor of this conference a few days before it were to begin, he saw an exhibit that depicited a pool of red water, suggesting jewish blood, and floating a top of it was a white boat, with a white flag that said "neutral", and a picture of King Gustaf VI Adolf a top of the boat. Would he not be insulted?

no i would not. unlike you i realize that we did/do wrong. Even though i should have thought that we did the right thing, i wouldn't have been insulted, i realize why people think sweden did wrong then, and therefore i should have understod and perhaps discussed it, instead of just destroying it...

read today that the government had NOT promised to not link the conference and the middle east conflict together.... so that make it even harder for me to understand your arguments...

how come that as fast as you criticize israel, you are anti semitic, but you criticize the palstinians, are you anti muslims or whatever for that?

quote:

Snow White and The Madness of Truth 17/01 - 07/02 Plats: Historiska Museet Installation Once upon a time in the middle of winter For the June 12 deaths of her brother, and her cousin and three drops of blood fell She was also a woman as white as snow, as red as blood, and her hair was as black as ebony Seemingly innocent with universal non-violent character, less suspicious of intentions and the red looked beautiful upon the white The murderer will yet pay the price and we will not be the only ones who are crying like a weed in her heart until she had no peace day and night Hanadi Jaradat was a 29-year-old lawyer I will run away into the wild forest, and never come home again Before the engagement took place, he was killed in an encounter with the Israeli security forces and she ran over sharp stones and through thorns She said: Your blood will not have been shed in vain and was about to pierce Snow White's innocent heart She was hospitalized, prostrate with grief, after witnessing the shootings The wild beasts will soon have devoured you After his death, she became the breadwinner and she devoted herself solely to that goal ”Yes”, said Snow White, "with all my heart” Weeping bitterly, she added: "If our nation cannot realize its dream and the goals of the victims, and live in freedom and dignity, then let the whole world be erased" Run away, then, you poor child She secretly crossed into Israel, charged into a Haifa restaurant, shot a security guard, blew herself up and murdered 19 innocent civilians as white as snow, as red as blood, and her hair was as black as ebony And many people are indeed crying: the Zer Aviv family, the Almog family, and all the relatives and friends of the dead and the wounded and the red looked beautiful upon the white

discuss...

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quote:

Originally posted by Flotser If anyone is interested, this arcitle from debka adds some more information on that issue, and yes it is not a 100% balanced source, but i think it's interesting and eye opening.

Aye, agree on the "not 100% balanced"-part. My comments are below.

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser The designers happened to be an ex-Israeli Swede called Dror Feiler and his Swedish wife Gunilla Skoeld Feiler. Dror is president of a group called “Jews for Palestinian Peace.” Clearly, they neither knew nor cared that the red pool represented Jewish and Arab blood – both Jews and Arabs were murdered in the restaurant by innocent “Snow White.” The bloody symbol they used inevitably recalls the fictional blood libels drummed up by European anti-Semites as the pretext for medieval pogroms. In modern-day Sweden, the purported Christian boy victim has been replaced by a real-life Palestinian suicidal killer.

I really like this. The author of the article apparently knows more about the symbolism in the artwork than the artists themselves... Arrogance at its best.

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser The recent poll in which a majority of Europeans canvassed described Israel as the biggest threat to world peace likewise went by without response. In fact, shortly after its publication, Israel’s deputy prime minister and minister of industry, Ehud Olmert, bowed to the EU’s demand to add special markings to Israeli products manufactured across the Green Line in order to help European consumers boycott them.

Two lies in one paragraph. The first being the 60% finding Israel the biggest threat to world peace. If you accept this as true, you need to accept that there are at least 368% Europeans. I gave my views on this piece of propagande distortion in this thread:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...t=opinion+polls

The second lie is the markings of products for consumers "to boycott them". Actually, Israel has very favorable trading terms with the EU - and it is because of these are not valid for goods produced outside of the Israeli state that the markings were required.

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser If Israel were to follow the European example, its ministers, senior officials and high court judges would tomorrow morning hand in the Swedish Volvo automobiles which are standard Israeli VIP issue and trade them for cars made in other countries. There is nothing, moreover, to stop the heads of the Jewish Agency advising Jews around the world to boycott Volvo, SKF and Ikea, in the same way that many American consumers spontaneously blacked French wines and cheese in response for French hostility to the Iraq War.

Oh, and did we laugh of this American madness. Even the vast majority of cool-headed Americans found that behaviour ill thought out.
However, as the article is really not that well written, I am having troubles understanding what example the Israeli ministers should follow? Are there any governments in the EU having changed suppliers (and where in the article is that stated)?

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser European democracies like Sweden might then have the necessary incentive to finally decide how far freedom of expression or art may be indulged when blood libels against Jewish citizens are published freely on European Web sites and exhibited publicly in their national museums. Who will draw the line on freedoms used to license incitement to mass murder?

Does free speach (and art exhibitions like this one) incite mass murder? I would have thought poor living conditions and oppresion would do the trick - but then again, the author might be right: It is us darned Europeans and our goddamned liberal ideas that cause these suicide attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Tito, both you and trancaholic have misinterperted the artwork, your intepertations would perhaps a part to bear if it were not for one small thing - the picture of the suicide bomber has her smiling in happiness. You must also realize the name the "artist" chose for the exhibit - "Snow White and the Maddness of truth". Snow White is a pure innocent virgin and he "artist" lets us know here Maddness is true - defintely not a critique My interpertation of the art is quiet simple, you have a smiling picture of a Suicide Bomber floating in a WHITE boat over a pool of blood. She is floating above the killing in peace and happiness over the blood she has spilled.

If you knew your fairytales, you would know that snow white was an innocent who was fed poison and almost died. I see no reason why this poison couldn't be the bullshit spread by the mullahs in the occupied territories, but you are free to believe whatever you want.
As regard to the picture portraying her as smiling: Isn't that the sort of picture that the Palestinians use when they pay tribute to their fallen comrades? Thus, emphasizing my point?

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus The fact that the author is Jewish or Israeli has no bearing on his political or artistic views. There are all type of Jews from fanatical settlers, to fanatical anti-jewish Jews - alla Marx. I could have cared less if this "art" was made by a Jew, a Swede, or a Palestinian, the message is quiet clear. The Jewish artist is a VERY staunch lefty in the Israeli political specturm, against the occupation, and obviously very pro-palestinian. It goes to show that sterotypes do not make a man. Just because a man is Jewish or Israeli does not mean they think a certain way or act in a certain way. I can't belive you guys are so racist to belive in such sterotypes.

Don't play the racist card on me - it's crap and you know it. I tried looking through your posts above, and there are litterally tens of parts where you generalize over entire nations. Save those racist accusations to those who deserve them - otherwise you'll end up wearing off the deeper meaning of the phrase.
I realise that there are Jews of different political views (heck, the murder of Rabin was a manifestation of this), but I think that the assumption I made was quite excusable. You wouldn't contest that the majority of Jews are pro-Israel in these matters?

Last edited by trancaholic on Jan-18-2004 at 18:46