quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Yeah, but that's Democracy. The Democrats can't just keep putting up centre-rightists as candidates and expect to win the leftist vote just by default. I mean why would someone who opposes Bush vote for Kerry, a man who helped Bush get his war, his tax-cuts, his FTAs and so forth through congress in the first place? I mean I'd certainly prefer Kerry to Bush, but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you think that the election of Kerry will constitute a significant shift in government ideology (though I doubt he could handle the US economy any worse than Bush - in fact Kerry's probably more of a Republican than Bush in this regard). If Nader runs, gets 5% and prevents the Democrats from winning the election then - yes - it won't be much fun putting up with the Shrub for another 4 years but I think it's healthier for democracy in the long run: it sends the message to the Democrats that they can't just act like toned-down Republicans, they need to form their own solid set of ideologies and policies, fundamentally different from those of the Republicans. If the Democrats want that 5% of the vote they're going to have to earn it, not just presume that they can rely on their image as the lesser of two-evils to win the votes by default.

You're right of course, but I think with the electoral college system, it will always be a two party dominated system. Also, you're never going to win a US election in Kucinich/Nader or Robertson/Fallwell land. It's all about winning in the middle.


Gore was no Bill Clinton. If he was, the Nader vote wouldn't have even mattered in 2000.

There are also far right 3rd parties putting up candidates as well:

http://www.constitutionparty.com/

Michael Peroutka is running on making America into a theocracy. He'll probably pull some of the disillusioned fundie vote from Bush:

http://www.peroutka2004.com/home.html

Many fundies are actually quite unhappy with Bush, and indeed Peroutka's on the ballot in Florida.

I read somewhere that Pat Buchanan is also thinking of another run, probably on the Reform Party ticket.

He's very much against the NeoCon's philosophies, and wants them to lose power.

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Last edited by DaveSZ on Feb-21-2004 at 09:59

quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ You're right of course, but I think with the electoral college system, it will always be a two party dominated system. Also, you're never going to win a US election in Kucinich/Nader or Robertson/Fallwell land. It's all about winning in the middle. Gore was no Bill Clinton. If he was, the Nader vote wouldn't have even mattered in 2000. There are also far right 3rd parties putting up candidates as well: http://www.constitutionparty.com/ Michael Peroutka is running on making America into a theocracy. He'll probably pull some of the disillusioned fundie vote from Bush: http://www.peroutka2004.com/home.html Many fundies are actually quite unhappy with Bush, and indeed Peroutka's on the ballot in Florida. I read somewhere that Pat Buchanan is also thinking of another run, probably on the Reform Party ticket. He's very much against the NeoCon's philosophies, and wants them to lose power.

I just hope that you are correct about the Nader point Dave but I just have to scratch my head. The one time that any center, moderate and left-wing American should unite for the good of this nation as a whole Nader plunks himself in as an independent, time will tell its impact on Election 2004

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quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I just hope that you are correct about the Nader point Dave but I just have to scratch my head. The one time that any center, moderate and left-wing American should unite for the good of this nation as a whole Nader plunks himself in as an independent, time will tell its impact on Election 2004

I think he must not be able to put aside his own ego for the good of the country, and that's a real shame. Dean seems to have represented the angry left this time around, so let's see what he does in relation to keeping all those people in the party fold.

In reality, the Grand Canyon will almost certainly be logged now, a Scalia clone or two will be appointed to the Supreme Court, and we'll also be bombing Iran or Syria sometime within the next two to five years.

See ya in the desert after we're drafted.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono I will, just to piss you pink-o commies off.

Some areas of your state have nearly a 30% unemployment rate, but maybe those people will still be able to afford their rent, groceries, and doctor bills with their $20 tax cut.

When all else fails, campaign against the homos.

That always works.

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Last edited by DaveSZ on Feb-22-2004 at 19:46

It's only a matter of time before the two major parties realize that they can fund mini-campaigns for third party candidates on the other side of the political spectrum to employ a "divide and conquer" methodology for obtaining political influence.

People don't want to hear it but democracy is fundamentally flawed - and this is a perfect example of how. In a couple hundred years, people will look at democracy the same way we look at monarchy today.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter It's only a matter of time before the two major parties realize that they can fund mini-campaigns for third party candidates on the other side of the political spectrum to employ a "divide and conquer" methodology for obtaining political influence. People don't want to hear it but democracy is fundamentally flawed - and this is a perfect example of how. In a couple hundred years, people will look at democracy the same way we look at monarchy today.

No one can't tell me that the Repubs. aren't having a laugh or two after they heard Nader is entering the contest, it certainly won't hurt them. I just hope that the independent voters in key swing states, don't blindly run after Nader and cast their vote. I am with Dave in that we will find ourselves in another Middle Eastern desert fighting for DEMOCRACY when Bush is re-elected. THANK YOU RALPH NADER for unwittingly helping the Neo-Cons to remain in power

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Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Feb-22-2004 at 20:23

I wonder if the GOP will fund Nader's ads like they did back in 2000?:

quote:

GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads By Laura Meckler Associated Press Writer Friday, Oct. 27, 2000; 11:59 a.m. EDT WASHINGTON –– Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president. The ads by the Republican Leadership Council will begin airing Monday in Wisconsin, Oregon and Washington, all states that are part of Gore's base and where Nader is polling well. The group plans to spend more than $100,000 at first and hopes to raise more over the weekend. While the ads boost Nader, they are a clear attempt to help Bush. Gore's supporters fear that Nader, who is more liberal than either Bush or Gore, will throw the election to the Texas governor if voters who might otherwise vote for Gore vote for Nader instead. In a tight national race, one or two states could make the difference in who is elected president. The ads feature clips of Nader from a National Press Club speech on Tuesday, where he laid into both Bush and Gore, though the ad only includes his criticism of Gore. "Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of," Nader says. An announcer interjects: "What's Al Gore's real record?" Nader says: "Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken." Nader has been equally critical, if not more so, of Bush, calling him "a big corporation running for president disguised as a person." But the RLC ads are a clear attempt to help Bush, not Nader. A Gore spokesman suggested that the ads may backfire. "Voters are going to ask why these shadowy groups are running attack ads on behalf of George Bush," said Doug Hattaway. He added that there are stark differences between Bush and Gore on abortion and the environment, and "people who are thinking about voting for Nader care deeply about those issues and would not want to see them put at risk by George Bush." Nader, running a low-budget campaign, is not airing any television commercials of his own and it's possible that the RLC will end up spending more on pro-Nader media that Nader himself. A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Nader's speeches. "The tactics of the other two parties are not our concern," said spokeswoman Laura Jones. Asked if the campaign welcomed the outside help, she added: "Not really because they (the ads) are misleading in that they don't indicate that we are campaigning against Al Gore and George W. Bush." Nader has had to repeatedly defend himself against people arguing that his candidacy will help Bush. He has responded that it makes little difference whether Bush or Gore is elected and has said he is running to give voters an alternative. "We're building a progressive political movement. That's the most important thing," Nader said Friday on ABC's "Good Morning America." "Whether Gore or Bush gets into the White House doesn't mean that much, because the permanent corporate government in Washington is really determining policy." The Republican Leadership Council, a centrist GOP group, has been helpful to Bush before, airing ads during the Republican primaries critical of challenger Steve Forbes. Several members of the RLC board were early Bush supporters. The RLC ads will run initially in four markets: Eugene and Portland, Ore.; Madison, Wis., and Seattle. Mark Miller, the group's executive director, said the ads are partly a response to commercials being run by the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League, which argue that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. "Ralph Nader doesn't believe that," Miller said. "Ralph Nader and his supporters are not backing down because they believe Al Gore has had numerous broken promises." Miller added that some of Nader's supporters have bragged that Nader has never had help from "soft money," the unrestricted donations used by parties and interest groups. "We'll put an end to that," Miller said. © Copyright 2000 The Associated Press http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...e115918_000.htm

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

You know what this means in 08 right?

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Word on the street is that Judge Roy Moore is also thinking of running, and then there is also the libertarian party candidate.

http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=1276

So there will be many third party candidates on both sides this time.

Write the constitution party, and tell them to ask Moore to run for the good of this Godly Republic. He's already their keynote speaker:

http://www.constitutionparty.com/

Let's show those godless liberals a thing or two!

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Last edited by DaveSZ on Feb-23-2004 at 10:34