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Originally posted by Shakka Send them back to their patron country??? So they can tell their government about all of the secrets they found out when they were spying? How is this punishment??? If anything it seems like rewarding a spy for getting caught. I'm sure his/her patron country would give him/her a medal and a fat retirement package if that were to happen. The problem is that the spy is the one who actually holds the secrets. Sure, his government holds some responsibility in the grand scheme of things, but the sensitive information is in posession of the spy himself/herself.

You don't seem to know much about espionage. First of all, information isn't delivered in person, documents are usually copied and sent in code. By the time they catch a spy the damage has already been done. The spy acts as a conduit by which the info travels. You think a person can store thosands of documents in his mind. that too funny

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Originally posted by igottaknow You don't seem to know much about espionage. First of all, information isn't delivered in person, documents are usually copied and sent in code. By the time they catch a spy the damage has already been done. The spy acts as a conduit by which the info travels. You think a person can store thosands of documents in his mind. that too funny

Hehe it still wouldn't work. That woudl be the sweetest deal if you simply deported a spy. Shit, I'll spy on the US then ... "Russia, you give me $5000 a month for sensitive information and then when I get caught, you set me up in a sweet dacha with a good job and a monthly stipend." There is simply no disincentive for someone to NOT turn treasonous if they are dissatisfied in any way whatsoever.

With respects to the ethical considerations for espionage, one could most certainly argue that a nation is morally justified and even recquired to engage in acts of espionage in order to protect a country's national security and the well-being of its citizens ...

"Honesty ought not to allow the creation of an emergency by the enemy, when deception can forestall or avert it. . . . Whenever it is right to resist an assault or a threat by force, it must then be allowable to do so by guile."

-Sissela Bok

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Originally posted by igottaknow You don't seem to know much about espionage. First of all, information isn't delivered in person, documents are usually copied and sent in code. By the time they catch a spy the damage has already been done. The spy acts as a conduit by which the info travels. You think a person can store thosands of documents in his mind. that too funny

Maybe, but the spy still holds pretty sensitive information. To believe otherwise would be foolish. While I admit I am not a spy, nor do I have plans to become a spy or enter the espionage field, my powers of reason tell me that simply sending a spy back home would be the ideal punishment--in the eyes of the spy. No reprocussions at all.

A good spy must be prepared to sacrifice life and limb if his secrecy becomes compromised--hence my reference to Gary Powers--the infamous U2 pilot who was shot down and "forgot" to take his cyanide pill, creating a big clusterfuck and egg on the face of the US.

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Originally posted by occrider Hehe it still wouldn't work. That woudl be the sweetest deal if you simply deported a spy. Shit, I'll spy on the US then ... "Russia, you give me $5000 a month for sensitive information and then when I get caught, you set me up in a sweet dacha with a good job and a monthly stipend." There is simply no disincentive for someone to NOT turn treasonous if they are dissatisfied in any way whatsoever.

It's a misnomer that ppl spy for the money. The motivation for most include: to further a cause they believe in, a desire for excitement, or retribution against their government, but not for money.

On the question of a suitable punishment. There should be some punishment for the spy, but it's unjust not to take any meaningful action against the sponsor country. The UN could setup universal rules and guidelines agreed by all countries on the treatment and punishments doled out. International court and jail that deals with this type of crime wouldn’t be a bad idea. You might think it would be ridiculous to have an international rulebook on spying, but it’s not that far fetched when you think there is one for War.

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With respects to the ethical considerations for espionage, one could most certainly argue that a nation is morally justified and even recquired to engage in acts of espionage in order to protect a country's national security and the well-being of its citizens ...

so you're saying we have a moral obligation to spy

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GIGANTIC CUNT

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Originally posted by igottaknow It's a misnomer that ppl spy for the money. The motivation for most include: to further a cause they believe in, a desire for excitement, or retribution against their government, but not for money.

actually the two chief reasons people spy:

blackmail
money

most spies are "informants" people you bribe,pay, or blackmail in positions where they have access to stuff you want.

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http://norfolk.fbi.gov/walker.htm

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Interviews of convicted American spies have identified some of the most common reasons for committing espionage: Greed: The belief that money can be a quick fix or a source of happiness. Adventure: To add excitement to an otherwise boring life. Revenge: The desire to get back at someone or something. Ego: Combines with other motivators to boost one's self-esteem Ingratiation: A desire to please or win the approval of the foreign intelligence officer who has been recruiting the spy. Identification/ideology: Identification with a country or belief system; also, the sense of helping an "underdog."

v---- well said, finally someone who gets what i'm saying

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Last edited by igottaknow on Mar-13-2004 at 20:10

The only difference between Spying and Intellgence Gathering is the victim. When we are the victims its spying. When we are doing the spying, its Intelligence Gathering. Its like when members of our military are captured and tortured, we condemn them for using such tactics against prisoners. But when Saddam was captured, he was subjected to "aggressive interogation." Though, we all know he got the shit kicked out of him.

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Originally posted by igottaknow so you're saying we have a moral obligation to spy

I would say so yes. If Mexico poses a direct threat to the United States by developing WMD factories and terrorist training camps, I would say that it is the duty of the intelligence services to find out, to the best of their ability, whatever information they can gather about what kind of threat Mexico poses to us. Now if that intelligence gathering apparatus includes human intel on the ground through recruitment of mexican nationals than so be it. If a mexican version of a september 11 occurs and we find out that officials could have reasonably prevented it if they had used human intel than I would hold them culpable for failing to protect the national security of the US. Now I wouldn't give the CIA or whomever a blank check to do everything they need to do, but I would say that espionage is not morally reprehensible enough to require a Geneva convention of sorts. Every country is more or less aware of the risks involved/posed with the practice ... and so are the human intelligence assets.

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