quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew and so can the terrorists...

The difference is we are actually held responsible for our actions.

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Well we should separate the hypocrisy here. With respect to Eurpeans criticizing the Iraq war it's not hypocritical. The two things are completely different, one involves a domestic agenda with preventative law-enforcement against suspected terrorist cells, and the other is a pre-emptive foreign policy decision to invade another country. True I suppose one could make links from the micro to the macro, but I feel that is somewhat simplistic.

However, it IS hypocritical with respect to Europeans criticizing the patriot act and claiming that the US is not "free" anymore. Essentially it looks to be the same sort of practices. Actually what I'm curious about, is whether these pre-emptive tactics have total disregard to whether a suspect is an alien or a citizen. If there are no distinctions then these acts are even WORSE than the patriot act. What most surprises me is how there is no media attention ...

European media ... tap tap tap ... hellooo?? Anybody home?

Maybe it's only newsworthy if freedoms are taken away in the US ...

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Last edited by occrider on Apr-09-2004 at 16:16

quote:

Originally posted by xKaoSx The difference is we are actually held responsible for our actions.

Angling for sympathy again...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Maybe it's only newsworthy if freedoms are taken away in the US ...

Basically. Afterall if freedoms are taken away from someone else in the world, the USA will always be there to restore them. But if freedoms are taken away in the USA, who will be there to restore them?

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider However, it IS hypocritical with respect to Europeans criticizing the patriot act and claiming that the US is not "free" anymore. Essentially it looks to be the same sort of practices.

Well, if you can find people criticising the patriot act, but praising "anti-terror laws" in Europe, then yes. I, for one, don't think I have criticised the patriot act (as I'm fairly ignorant as to its wording), and so far have yet to be agitated over the "hard-line" approach in Europe. I could equally imagine that some Europeans would protest these measures as ardent as they have criticised the patriot act. The socialist being-anti-US-for-the-sake-of-being-anti-US people, would probably fall into the category of hypocrites, but comfort yourself that it won't be the first time these people act ambiguously.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Actually what I'm curious about, is whether these pre-emptive tactics have total disregard to whether a suspect is an alien or a citizen. If there are no distinctions then these acts are even WORSE than the patriot act.

Here is where you differ from the most vocal Europeans. They would claim that distinguishing between aliens and citizens would be racist and something that should be below Europeans.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Here is where you differ from the most vocal Europeans. They would claim that distinguishing between aliens and citizens would be racist and something that should be below Europeans.

Well I only state that because the patriot act makes the distinction between citizens and aliens. Essentially some of its civil liberty infringements are only applicable to aliens (which makes sense I suppose). However, one could most certainly make the argument that a non-citizen might not be entitled to all the protections/benefits of a citizen ... in the same manner that they may not be entitled to all the costs. This is not to say that laws should be twice as harsh for aliens and that type of thing, but I think that common sense civil liberty laws, such as surveillance, can be relaxed if there is reason for suspicion. I think it would be a disturbing trend however, to apply all these civil liberty infringements on the majority of society.

But the reason why I'm so confused is that there was so much European press attention to the passage of bills such as the patriot act. Yet why is there relatively little to no mention of these acts in the European media when Europe is doing the exact same thing? Were these protections never in place to begin with so it's no big deal or something?

Edit: To add to that, why are Europeans here not as concerned (not you specifically)? I can do a search and bring up a million threads involving the patriot act, how it was an erosion of freedom, etc., etc., etc., yet here there's only one thread, brought up by an american, who's source is an american newspaper. Have the madrid bombing "legitamized" these practices for Europeans in the same fashion that 9/11 did for the US?

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Last edited by occrider on Apr-09-2004 at 17:08

quote:

Originally posted by xKaoSx The difference is we are actually held responsible for our actions.

yeeeeeeah riiiight, cause there are so many more people in this world that are anti USA than anti terrorists...