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Sid
uncle thiddles



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia

excellent post Renegade.

US foreign policy is a tricky one for me. Its all good and merry to blame all the problems of the world on US foreign policy, but at the same time we must look at who holds the means of production. Countries are undoubtedly forced to side with such policies due to economic interests (there a millions of examples, however I have a paper due next week, which I should be working on and couldn't be bothered digging one up). YES exploitation occurs, but would these people in most parts of the Third world be any better off if it wasn't for American intrusion? Would their local or state governments provide them with any sought of means where they could possibly get a head? Its a difficult balance, but we must consider what other option most nations would have if they didn't side with US foreign policy.

(based on my definition that US foreign policy = US economic policy)


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 03:43 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

Good post renegade ... one minor comment:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade

The situation in Africa is a case in point of the dangers posed when a nation has a commercial interest in the propogation of aid. The US provides its agricultural sector with massive subsidies to ensure that the US farmers stay in business and the farmers from elsewhere (including Africa) cannot compete in the US market. This subsidised food ends up being sold cheaply in the African markets against which the African farmers cannot compete. As a result, African nations become even more reliant on foreign aid which - you guessed it - the US just buys straight off its own farmers. The French confronted the US on this policy, offering a different aid structure and a series of policies designed to help the Africans help themselves, but of course Mr Bush would never let something like self-sustainability get in the way of the cash-cow bonanza that is "humanitarian aid"!:


I'm not entirely sure how the French confronted the US on this policy, but I thougght that we addressed the issue of agricultural farm subsidies and who the biggest offenders are as evidenced by their stances in the DOHA conferences .


http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...ies#post1544961


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 03:50  United States
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Dervish
Your opinion matters.



Registered: Dec 2003
Location:

Thats a monster sized post Renagede. Nice one though.

quote:
YES exploitation occurs, but would these people in most parts of the Third world be any better off if it wasn't for American intrusion?


Actually in for example India there is a good case for them being better off. I've written some stuff on it if you want me to post it.

PS: I'm sure I put more stuff in my origonal post about the US and Keoto and AIDS. Do posts ever get edited or cut back?


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 08:48 
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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Good post renegade ... one minor comment:



I'm not entirely sure how the French confronted the US on this policy, but I thougght that we addressed the issue of agricultural farm subsidies and who the biggest offenders are as evidenced by their stances in the DOHA conferences .


http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...ies#post1544961


Yep, good call. The Euro trade policies (not just limited to agriculture) have been as bad as or worse than US trade policies over the past few years, so they deserve as much scorn from a free-trade perspective and I wholly acknowledge this. The trade issue I raised, however, solely concerned Africa-specific policy. If you're going to offer humanitarian aid to a continent in need, then there should be undertaken for the sake of humanitarian aid, not for the sake of one's own domestic agricultural industry. Similarly, the emphasis should not be placed on such unilateral "aid" but rather on increasing the chances for self-sustainability within the African continent. The "aid" offered by the Bush admin (and opposed by the EU nations) contradicts both these aims.

What I'm trying to say is that aid is good, but that better aid is better. I've had about 97 beers tonight but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say?


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 15:31  Australia
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Yep, good call. The Euro trade policies (not just limited to agriculture) have been as bad as or worse than US trade policies over the past few years, so they deserve as much scorn from a free-trade perspective and I wholly acknowledge this. The trade issue I raised, however, solely concerned Africa-specific policy. If you're going to offer humanitarian aid to a continent in need, then there should be undertaken for the sake of humanitarian aid, not for the sake of one's own domestic agricultural industry. Similarly, the emphasis should not be placed on such unilateral "aid" but rather on increasing the chances for self-sustainability within the African continent. The "aid" offered by the Bush admin (and opposed by the EU nations) contradicts both these aims.


Ahh so your one of those against the "two birds, one stone" policy huh (i really wanna see someone take out two brids with a stone one day.. that would be COOL).

However the USA has a "better" aid policy than Europe as well. Its not typically the USA farmers that are getting the money back but the agricultural industry. And its easy to understand why, when you are teaching Africans how to farm you need farm equipment, fertilizers, water pumps, tools, and most importantly SEEDS. The USA is the one trying to give the Africans GM seeds, which will produce more abundant and successful crops with out the pesticides or chemicals (which is important as in Africa many drink from the same untreated well or river where these chemicals go into).

European policy has yet to alllow for such benevolence.


Despite all the help the USA provides Africa, I think just giving them food is actually the best solution. Africans (in generalization) have a quirck where they have the inability to store their surpluses. If its a good year of harvest, they don't dry and save some, no, they sell it all out. The best way to prevent such action is to flood the market with food to deter the farmer from selling all of his food and perhaps saving it. (Think of it like monetary policy for the poor nations. )


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 16:56  Israel
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Spankster
tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Kibutz

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
If its a good year of harvest, they don't dry and save some, no, they sell it all out. The best way to prevent such action is to flood the market with food to deter the farmer from selling all of his food and perhaps saving it. (Think of it like monetary policy for the poor nations. )


Are you serious??
Malawi is a perfect example in their most recent famine. What stocks of Maize(primary source of food) they had left instead of feeding the population they were forced to sell in order to pay debt. Malawi's were in outrage that this had occurred while their peoples were starving.
What good is flooding the market gonna do except make developing countries earn less from what maybe a major contributer to its economy with its food exports. It will plunge em into deeper poverty, if thats even possible.


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 17:39  Palestine
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Spankster
Are you serious??
Malawi is a perfect example in their most recent famine. What stocks of Maize(primary source of food) they had left instead of feeding the population they were forced to sell in order to pay debt.


First, I plead ignorane on the example of Malawi. What famine excatly are we talking about, how recent?

Now after disclaiming that, correct me if I'm wrong but Maize, or sugar, is a cash crop. Its not a primary source of food. How exactly would a government go about "feeding the population" with it, if they weren't forced to sell it to buy food?

quote:

Malawi's were in outrage that this had occurred while their peoples were starving.
What good is flooding the market gonna do except make developing countries earn less from what maybe a major contributer to its economy with its food exports. It will plunge em into deeper poverty, if thats even possible.


Thats exactly my point. By flooding the market before a drought or famine year it forces the government/farmers not to sell its products until there is a high demand for it. Since a famine increases the demand a whole lot, the government would than open its stores at such a time.

The point I was making was that African government don't know how to "save" and this is their primary problem. You can blame the WTO and IMB/IMF etc for this, but they weren't the ones that got these nations into debt, the nations themselves were.

--If you don't like the IMF, don't join it. Its that simple. What is the first world going to do? Invade a measly thrid-world country to collect their debt? Come on. If there is any a losing side in the First vs. Third world debate it is the First world creditors. They have no garuntees, why the hell should they invest?--


So I'm curious what would be your solution to the African problem?
Teach them how to farm? We've tried it for 50 years. Give them Food, we've tried that for 50 years.

What we haven't tried is institution a "monetary" policy on our donations.


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 18:12  Israel
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Spankster
tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Kibutz

Link to Famine in Malawi

Above is some info about the famine that occurred in malawi, not to mention its neighbouring countries.

Maize isnt a sugar!! Its like corn and they use it to make bread/porridge and however else they cook it. But on further reading maize was just one source of food they sold off but also grain/wheat.

I'm not gonna pretend i have the answer for developing african countries cos i dont.........i think you should stop pretending as well.


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 18:31  Palestine
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Spankster
Link to Famine in Malawi

Above is some info about the famine that occurred in malawi, not to mention its neighbouring countries.


Thanks good link. I belive it is actually a fairly even-handed report. After reading it though, I can say I am leaning against the Malawi government and for the IMF in this case.

And it sort of agian, proves my point that African's can't seem to save.

quote:

I'm not gonna pretend i have the answer for developing african countries cos i dont.........i think you should stop pretending as well.


True, I don't know if I have the answer, however I do know what hasn't worked, and I am offering new ideas and new ways of thinking about it.

If it was up to me, I'd take the "prime directive" approach with Africa.

Afterall, most African nations aren't capable of creating a grannery, a place where you store surplus food for the future. Recall that Egyptian civilization had this 'technology' way back 7000 years ago around 5000BC.

Africa is defintely way way behind the third world, they are almost prehistoric.


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 18:48  Israel
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Spankster
tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Kibutz

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Thanks good link. I belive it is actually a fairly even-handed report. After reading it though, I can say I am leaning against the Malawi government and for the IMF in this case.

And it sort of agian, proves my point that African's can't seem to save.

True, I don't know if I have the answer, however I do know what hasn't worked, and I am offering new ideas and new ways of thinking about it.

If it was up to me, I'd take the "prime directive" approach with Africa.



I would like to see malawi void a payment to the IMF!!
There is no question corrupt governments have a large effect on the crisis but the IMF certainly doesnt help matters either.
Your idea as mentioned in the article showed that selfish parties would hoard supplies and then crank up prices.
That happens anywhere.Take fuel for example..........when there is a shortage of fuel like what happened in the US after Venezuela had major strikes in its oil industry, the price went up as supply went down.Could you foresee oil companies giving away free petrol especially when you consider how fuel(and its cost and availability) can greatly affect the performance of an economy? The IMF as part of Loan requirements demanded that the malawi's National Food Reserve Agency (NFRA) be privatised. This is what the IMF calls economic rationalizing. With the NFRA privatised they are not working in the interest of the people anymore.


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Old Post Apr-10-2004 19:26  Palestine
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Dervish
Your opinion matters.



Registered: Dec 2003
Location:

I wasn't going to post this before because it's pretty big and it wasn't completely relevenant to the post at the time. But now I think it is. Its about a lecture but the issues cover the kinda stuff we've been talking about. It's a essay I did for a environmental engineering management class.

quote:

This critical analysis covers topics raised in Vandana Shiva’s BBC Reith 2000 lecture on Poverty & Globalisation. This lecture explored issues such as biodiversity, effects of globalisation and the sustainability of globalisation.

When examined from a layman westerners perspective the lecture appears to be fairly subjective and it’s easy to pick out statements which would appear to be either un-politically correct or very general such as “women's indigenous knowledge of biodiversity”. To a westerner this seems very politically incorrect to single out women in this way, to state their role, and the lecture seems to lose some credence as a result. But when considered in more depth, this statement that women are the specialists or managers and have the knowledge of biodiversity and management, is actually true it is their role, politically incorrect or not. To the vast majority of the world this is true but to the westerner is seems un-politically correct. So this gives rise to the thought that perhaps it is not Vandana Shiva who has the flawed view of the world but the general western view. That is not to say
that western views on political correctness are wrong simply that a world view must take into account all parts of the world and not apply experience from one area in a uniform manner. It is with this thought in mind that the rest of the lecture should be examined.

The Cambridge Dictionary definition of globalisation:

“globalization
noun [U]
1 (UK USUALLY -isation) the increase of trade around the world, especially by large companies producing and trading goods in many different countries:
‘We must take advantage of the increased globalization of the commodity trading business.’

2 when available goods and services, or social and cultural influences, gradually become similar in all parts of the world:
‘the globalization of fashion/American youth culture’

In the context of the lecture globalisation mainly takes the form of biological technology companies supplying seeds to Indian farmers. The lecture focuses on the effects of this globalisation and the motivation behind the globalisation and the paradigms of the parties involved.

Dr Shiva raises many issues related to the development seen in India. These are almost exclusively related to agriculture as this is the level most development is taking place, also agriculture is the foundation of civilisation and as such is very important. The effects of development and the sources of these effects are explored. Effects range from debt traps to starvation to suicides. The causes range from dependence creation to restricted biodiversity and dietary interference.

Dependence creation is formed by bio-tech companies in a diverse number of ways, the most obvious being through the replacement of standard seeds with hybrid or genetically modified seeds. These seeds have been used to replace traditional seeds firstly due to promises of increased yields, but also through promises of increased nutrients and lower maintenance. An adverse effect of using these seeds is that they need to be purchased at a price every year. Traditionally this was not necessary as seeds could be harvested and kept, even exchanged with neighbours. This is not possible with GM crops. This of course creates a dependence on the bio-tech company supplying the seeds. Other perhaps unforeseen effects are that these crops require more water to survive and upset the naturally bio-diverse balance created over centuries of farming. These bio-diverse methods involve the planting of one crop to support the other. An example from another area which illustrates this perhaps most simply is the Chinese rice paddy. In reality a highly intensive form of farming with many harvests from the same patch of land, with no need for leaving fields fallow or fertilisers. How is this sustained? The rice paddies are flooded with water and in the water are fish. These fish are fed and the waste products provide a completely predictable and high purity source of nutrients. Additionally the fish are eaten providing more nutrients. Although this example is not in the area of interest, and could never be applied in the area of interest, it shows the kind of balance created. In India exactly the same type of balance has been found for generations.

But as much as the Chinese method should not be applied to India the western method should not. The western method being one field one crop, in some cases basically one state one crop, such as corn in Iowa! The western method is always used for creating a product to be sold on, not used. Being a farmer is a job not a way of supplying food. And as such it is mechanised and highly intensive to maximise profits and minimise costs. But this can’t be applied to small farms. When is an Indian farmer with 0.8 hectares going to be able to afford a several hundred thousand dollar harvester? Especially when he gets no subsidy and practically nothing for anything he sells. Of course the most fundamental problem is that there would be no need for a harvester as it would take one less than a day to hoover up 0.8 hectares of corn, even if the equipment sharing methods used in the west were used! You cannot apply that method. Also any fertiliser used kills off other plants used to keep a natural balance and provide valuable nutrients. The underlying point of all this is a western farm is a business perhaps in the business of corn production or tomatoes, an Indian or any subsistence or near subsistence farm is a source of food. And if you only have one crop how can you get a balanced diet from that? It isn’t a world of capital, investment or profit but survival. And as such the methods from one area cannot be applied to the other. This is what is done with the use of GM crops which are tailored to western methods.

In terms of food the application of monocultures (one field one crop) provides a problem in terms of a balanced diet. How do you get a wide range of nutrients from one crop? The short answer is you don’t. Attempts have been made by the bio-tech companies to cater for certain vitamin deficiencies by supplying products such as GM “protein potatoes”. Unfortunately these “protein potatoes” have less protein than the crops they are meant to be replacing, such as amaranth. More worryingly they contain orders of magnitude less iron and calcium. So in the end instead of relieving one deficiency create two more.

There is possibly a question as to why an Indian farmer would buy these seeds, why bother? To answer this an insight into their way of thinking is required. Above the value 0.8 hectares is stated in reference to an Indian farm the reason for this is that 70% of Indian farmers have that amount of land or less. These farms are called “marginal holdings” and the vast majority have only rain water irrigation. These farms can only just manage a bare subsistence and cannot afford to buy food or irrigation systems. Remember that these farms have to support the whole family and any landless labours, and a bad season means no food, and having no food has its own result. It is in this environment that seed companies offer wonder crops that will yield many times as much crops and be hardier, and more reliable. Incidentally these are often marketed heavily after bad seasons. There will be enough to perhaps sell and get money to put away for the bad seasons to buy food. In other words enough to provide security for the farmer’s families. That is why they take the risk with the little money they have. This probably seems a little emotive, but is none the less true.

Primarily it is the application of the west’s development to the third world without thought which causes the problems. It could be said that the bio-tech companies should know better than to look to exploit people and are heartless. But as business their responsibility is to their shareholders who want return on their investments. India as an example has a population of over 1 billion and so is a hard market to overlook, in those terms. Ultimately though governments, and other world political organisations should create a framework of legislation which restricts the ability of these companies to exploit people unfairly. Some nations actively try to evade or negate these frameworks such as the United States, which ratified neither the Cartagena Protocol, unlike 100 other nations, nor the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) and as such has no obligation to follow either. It is worth noting perhaps that if everyone on the earth was an American, eight more earths would be required to support us. Which with reference to sustainability this conceivably backs up Dr Shiva’s conclusion which was a quote by Gandhi “The earth has enough for everyone's needs, but not for some people's greed”.


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Old Post Apr-11-2004 15:26 
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Dervish
I wasn't going to post this before because it's pretty big and it wasn't completely relevenant to the post at the time. But now I think it is. Its about a lecture but the issues cover the kinda stuff we've been talking about. It's a essay I did for a environmental engineering management class.


Can you post a link to the article you mention in the first paragraph?

I would like to actually know what your talking about you see


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Old Post Apr-11-2004 18:19  Israel
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