quote:

Originally posted by rizen Yep it was a wrong choice, but you can't force Democracy on them, just look at Afghanistan or Iraq

The funny part about Afghanistan or Iraq is that if the people rise up because they don't like democracy, most won't live to complain about it too long these days.

[[[smoke]]]

I can't believe the extremist racism in this thread. Illan and Yoepus, I think you two need to be educated before you start posting false information and racist comments against the Arabs. Illan, some of the names in your post aren't even Muslim! Muslims don't give English names. When you see an English name on an Arab, you'll know right away that he's Christian. Albert Camus is not Muslim. Peter Brian Medawar is not Muslim. And Elias is a typical Christian Arab name; it means Elijah. So basically you're posting about the Global Islamic Population but giving stats on Arabs. Your facts are fucked up.

The Arab world's problem is American hegemony over them and Israeli rule. America must stop funding undemocratic Arab regimes such as the Saudi and Jordanian Kings. Yoepus, the Arabs did not choose to be ruled by shithead dictatorships. America did. By funding and supplying them with weapons. There's a democratic intellectual movement happening right now, and God help America if Arabs succeed in implementing democracy. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US interests. Yoepus, we're sitting on a gold mine that we don't control. If we did, the US and Israel would have a nervous breakdown. You have to educate yourself more on the politics of oil in the region.

___________________
*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I can't believe the extremist racism in this thread. Illan and Yoepus, I think you two need to be educated before you start posting false information and racist comments against the Arabs. Illan, some of the names in your post aren't even Muslim! Muslims don't give English names. When you see an English name on an Arab, you'll know right away that he's Christian. Albert Camus is not Muslim. Peter Brian Medawar is not Muslim. And Elias is a typical Christian Arab name; it means Elijah. So basically you're posting about the Global Islamic Population but giving stats on Arabs. Your facts are fucked up. The Arab world's problem is American hegemony over them and Israeli rule. America must stop funding undemocratic Arab regimes such as the Saudi and Jordanian Kings. Yoepus, the Arabs did not choose to be ruled by shithead dictatorships. America did. By funding and supplying them with weapons. There's a democratic intellectual movement happening right now, and God help America if Arabs succeed in implementing democracy. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US interests. Yoepus, we're sitting on a gold mine that we don't control. If we did, the US and Israel would have a nervous breakdown. You have to educate yourself more on the politics of oil in the region.

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I can't believe the extremist racism in this thread. Illan and Yoepus, I think you two need to be educated before you start posting false information and racist comments against the Arabs. Illan, some of the names in your post aren't even Muslim! Muslims don't give English names. When you see an English name on an Arab, you'll know right away that he's Christian. Albert Camus is not Muslim. Peter Brian Medawar is not Muslim. And Elias is a typical Christian Arab name; it means Elijah. So basically you're posting about the Global Islamic Population but giving stats on Arabs. Your facts are fucked up. The Arab world's problem is American hegemony over them and Israeli rule. America must stop funding undemocratic Arab regimes such as the Saudi and Jordanian Kings. Yoepus, the Arabs did not choose to be ruled by shithead dictatorships. America did. By funding and supplying them with weapons. There's a democratic intellectual movement happening right now, and God help America if Arabs succeed in implementing democracy. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US interests. Yoepus, we're sitting on a gold mine that we don't control. If we did, the US and Israel would have a nervous breakdown. You have to educate yourself more on the politics of oil in the region.

Forgive my impertinence, but haven't the Arab world and Islamic religion been around far longer than the USA and Israel have? Democracy, on the other hand, has been around as a concept for many centuries.

FYI, I'm not really supporting Ilan's position here, but your argument seems intrinsically flawed. Why not just say that it's illogical to generalize like that about the entire Arab world and that correlation doesn't imply causation, instead of conceding causation but blaming it on someone else?

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This is the dependency theory arguement we're having. Yes, the Arab world was not democratic before the US and Israel took over, but there can never be natural progress while the US is in control at the moment.

Illan's post was just false. He's talking about the world's Muslim population but listing Arabs who aren't Muslim. I'm just pointing out that it made no sense. A load of garbage.

There is no question that the Arab world is undemocratic and there is a lack of education within the Arab world in many areas. The problem has to do with religion and more importantly with American hegemony. Progress is possible, but not with American hegemony and not with Israeli occupation.

___________________
*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I can't believe the extremist racism in this thread. Illan and Yoepus, I think you two need to be educated before you start posting false information and racist comments against the Arabs.

Please point out my racism. I might not be as "politically correct" as you would like, but I don't think I am being racist.
I am simply stating that Arabs (and yes I am generalizing here on purpose) aren't very educated.

I just think that your racist against all Jews envious of all their nobel prizeses

quote:

Illan, some of the names in your post aren't even Muslim! Muslims don't give English names. When you see an English name on an Arab, you'll know right away that he's Christian. Albert Camus is not Muslim. Peter Brian Medawar is not Muslim. And Elias is a typical Christian Arab name; it means Elijah. So basically you're posting about the Global Islamic Population but giving stats on Arabs. Your facts are fucked up.

Great, so now what you are basically telling me is that the Arabs have almost no nobel prize winners. Thanks for reinforcing our point

Also when I was generalizing Arabs, I didn't specify religion. However, I do believe Lebanon, before its civil war did have a substantially higher living quality than its fellow Arab neighbors.

quote:

The Arab world's problem is American hegemony over them and Israeli rule. America must stop funding undemocratic Arab regimes such as the Saudi and Jordanian Kings. Yoepus, the Arabs did not choose to be ruled by shithead dictatorships. America did. By funding and supplying them with weapons.

Of course, its always someone else fault. Its never ever your own fault. I agree 100% I just stole thousands of dollars via tax evasion, but its ok I blame the government for oppressing me in the first place

quote:

There's a democratic intellectual movement happening right now, and God help America if Arabs succeed in implementing democracy. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US interests. Yoepus, we're sitting on a gold mine that we don't control. If we did, the US and Israel would have a nervous breakdown. You have to educate yourself more on the politics of oil in the region.

Ok please help me understand your logic. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US and Israeli interest why? Because when the Arabs are in control of their own oil, they won't sell it the USA and Israel? What will they do then, keep it all to themselves?

Might want to work on that theory a bit.




Now heres my primary counter argument.
If it is Israel and the USA primary that have repressed Arab society into its ignorance, than how come we see that in the very areas that Israel and the USA are involved in that you have the highest level of educated Arabs and liberties?

In Israel, Arabs today are extremlly well-off and educated compared to their counterparts around Arabia. Even in the Occupied territories, before the dictatorship of Yasser Arafat was installed (and this is one incident I will admit there was an Israel/USA appointed dictator) the prosperity, education, and liberty levels of Palestinains was much better off than their cousins in Arab nations.

The USA hasn't been very involved in the middle east. However its recent expedition into Iraq promises the middle east its first true Arab democracy. Currently Iraqis enjoy some of the highest liberties among Arabs, with free access education, health, power, equal rights, and soon to enjoy sufferage for women and men.

Perhaps your "intellectuals" are doing a positive thing for Arab democracy. But I can't see a more prospering, positive movement for Arab liberty than the current USA led project in Iraq.

If it doesn't suceed, it will be a great tradegy, and the biggest step back to democracy and liberty in the middle east, not the biggest triumph for it. Even the enemies of the USA admit that.

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_ilan_yosef The following are true facts and verified statistics: (checked from the Nobel price web site : http://www.almaz.com/nobel/) The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1957 - Albert Camus 1988 - Najib Mahfooz. Peace: 1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yaser Arafat <----------- I think its under suspention Physics/Chemistry: 1990 - Elias James Corey 1999 - Ahmed Zewail Medicine: 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar 1998 - Ferid Murad The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000 or about 0.02% of the world population. They received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World Peace: 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin Economics: 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Robert Fogel Medicine: 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Arthur Kornberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jacob 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Mars! hall W. Nirenberg 1969 - Salvador Luria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 1984 - Cesar Milstein 1985 - Michael Stuart Brown 1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein 1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini] 1988 - Gertrude Elion 1989 - Harold Varmus 1991 - Erwin Neher 1991 - Bert Sakmann 1993 - Richard J. Roberts 1993 - Phillip Sharp 1994 - Alfred Gilman 1995 - Edward B. Lewis Physics/Chemistry: 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1925 - James Franck 1943 - Gustav Stern 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 1978 - Peter L Kapitza 1979 - Sheldon Glashow 1979 - Stephen Weinberg 1988 - Jack Steinberger 1988 - Leon Lederman 1988 - Melvin Schwartz 1990 - Jerome Friedman 1995 - Martin Perl 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1972 - William Howard Stein 1977 - Ilya Prigogine 1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown 1980 - Paul Berg 1980 - Walter Gilbert 1981 - Roald Hoffmann 1982 - Aaron Klug 1985 - Albert A. Hauptman 1985 - Jerome Karle 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 1988 - Robert Huber 1989 - Sidney Altman 1990 - Elias James Corey 1992 - Rudolph Marcus 1999 - Ahmed Zewail 2000 - Alan J. Heeger The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge, the Jews are not promoting brain washing of children in military trainingn "summer" camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims. The Jews don't high-jack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics. The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels. The Jews don't have the economical strength of the Petroleum, nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the question. Perhaps if the world's Muslims could invest more in normal education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems, we could all live in a better world. Knowledge is power - It’s evident to me that Jews have better things to do with their time. Perhaps something that might actually benefit this fucked up world we live in that just keeps on trying to kill the very people who have done more than we could imagine for the development of this world and the advancement of mankind.

congrats, you just made the most dumbest post on TA!, even spamm on COR is more smarter

if "your" jews choose knowldge over weapons, why don't they let the childeren in plastina go to school normally..?

am sure mister i know everything have an answer

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian I can't believe the extremist racism in this thread. Illan and Yoepus, I think you two need to be educated before you start posting false information and racist comments against the Arabs. Illan, some of the names in your post aren't even Muslim! Muslims don't give English names. When you see an English name on an Arab, you'll know right away that he's Christian. Albert Camus is not Muslim. Peter Brian Medawar is not Muslim. And Elias is a typical Christian Arab name; it means Elijah. So basically you're posting about the Global Islamic Population but giving stats on Arabs. Your facts are fucked up.

Question: doesn't this indicate that Islam is the problem? If you've got Christian Arabs (which is a tiny fraction of the Arab population as a whole) able to win nobel prizes, but Muslim Arabs have a serious deficit of prizes, and they are living in the same countries and cities as each other... well... it looks like the only differential is religion.

Why are Jews and Christians capable of these acheivements but not Muslims?

This is an honest question, not sarcastic at all...

Ok Palestinian, Yoepus pretty much hit it, but I don't want to get into rhetoric so I'm just going to question your arguments in the most rational way possible:

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian This is the dependency theory arguement we're having. Yes, the Arab world was not democratic before the US and Israel took over, but there can never be natural progress while the US is in control at the moment.

Allow me to take a leap of faith and assume your exact position - that the Arab world cannot progress toward democracy until it ceases to be influenced by external democracy (the US). I'm not sure how that works logically, but let's for the moment just assume it to be true.

Okay, so no progress can be made while the US is in control. The question is, can progress be made without the US in control? And if you think that the answer is yes (which I assume you do), could you please point us specifically to what indicates this answer and explain why?

Since it's obvious to both of us that most or all of the Arab world did not make any natural progression toward democracy throughout history - over 2000 years' worth - I am curious as to what makes you think it would suddenly happen today, if we took away the USA's influence.

Please keep in mind I'm not being sarcastic or cynical here. I am just asking you to provide some evidence of your implied assertion that the Arab world would be making progress if the "conflicting conditions" were removed.

quote:

Illan's post was just false. He's talking about the world's Muslim population but listing Arabs who aren't Muslim. I'm just pointing out that it made no sense. A load of garbage.

Okay, yes, this is true - there are Muslim Arabs and there are Christian Arabs and even some Jewish Arabs.

However - as the poster above me pointed out - you are completely justified in this objection, but should that objection be sustained, it seems to support the polar opposite of the position you are currently taking. If the non-Muslim Arabs are better off than the Muslim ones (which seems to be the case, as you yourself have put forth), then are we not drawing a negative correlation with Islam here?

And if there is indeed such a correlation with Islam, and Islam has been the predominant religion of the Arab world for thousands of years, doesn't this give rise to at least the possibility (and I say possibility because it would obviously be a post hoc fallacy to assume definite causation) that Islam is precisely what's holding back the Arab world from the progress seen by other developed nations?

quote:

There is no question that the Arab world is undemocratic and there is a lack of education within the Arab world in many areas. The problem has to do with religion and more importantly with American hegemony. Progress is possible, but not with American hegemony and not with Israeli occupation.

As I've expressed above, I can certainly see a case for religion. However, I can't find any logical link to "American hegemony" - this hegemony, if we are to call it that, has only been present for a tiny fraction of the existence of these nations; and if you are asserting that it is some kind of impedement to progress for those nations, you must first prove to us what such an assertion presupposes - i.e. that progress would be occurring without this roadblock.

To use a very simple analogy, we can liken your description of the USA's influence as a large rock a few meters away from a blind man. If we are to assert that this rock is blocking his path and that he's going to trip over it, we have to first know that he's walking in that direction. Otherwise, it's not in his way at all, it's merely an object in the background; and if his destination is in the opposite direction, it might actually be helping him reach that destination by steering him clear of the wrong path.

Israeli occupation is another issue entirely. Israel has existed for an even shorter time than the USA, barely a speck on the slate of Arab history. And even if it is largely responsible for the shabby living conditions of Palestinians (I'm not conceding this, just speaking in hypotheticals), it certainly does not hold any sway against the entire Arab world, which Palestine is only a small fraction of. Sure, it might piss off foreign Arabs, but international irritation is not an impediment to domestic progress.

So let's hear it, Palestinian. Please show us some evidence of this natural progression which the USA is standing in the way of - without such positive evidence, your assertion doesn't amount to much more than the USA being a "bad luck charm".

----
Lisa: "Well that's specious reasoning. By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away."
Homer: "How does it work?"
Lisa: "It doesn't. It's just a stupid rock."
Homer: "Oh."
Lisa: "But you don't see any tigers around here do you?"
Homer: "Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock."

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quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant old, very old. Anyway, it's sad seeing that the Arab world was leading in all of those areas up until 5 centuries ago.

agree, they helped pioneer new areas of mathematics and science while us whiteys were slaughtering goats in the name God(s)

I believe that enough historical evidence poins out that fundamentalist religion and dogmatism is a primary reason for hindering progress and development. The primary reason why arab countries are so backward these days is because they enforce religion and discourage any reforms that could lead to improvements if they're even in a slightest way opposed to a nonsensical ramble called the Kuran. Luckily for us westerners, christianity does not have nearly the same grip on the society, and that's what made us so much more advanced.

Now, about US involvement in the area, I might even side with Palestinian. There were many semi-liberal governments in the middle east that were screwed up because of the more immediate american interests like Iran and Afghanistan. Even prior to that, the middle east has always been a source of conflicts between european powers, and the basic principle was and still is something like "We don't care about the situation of the local population, as long as the leadership is obedient and gives us resources". Strong states are difficult to be controlled, and that's why it's much easier to have an opressive fundamentalist government that is always unsecure in its seat and therefore must suck up to foreigners who provide them military and intelligence aid in exchange for oil.

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