quote:

Originally posted by Diehard_clubber The situation in Iraq is awful, there is a temporary ceasfire, but everyday the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people are turning against the coalition, and the US military behaviour has done absolutely nothing to help. You don't seem to realise that the news of US soldiers shooting up families in cars, or bombing mosques, or dropping bombs on markets, or residential areas etc etc goes all round the world, and will be reported in these Eastern countries as US attacks on civilians, or more importantly on muslims. It is playing into these peoples hands, they know if they keep pushing the US, that the US will retaliate and so the situation gets worse and worse. And about ur last point, i never said i was dis-agreeing i was stating how it looked to these people... u know, the potential future suicide bombers, that could feel that strongly against the west that they are prepared to kill themselves for it. They view it as a Western attack on their world and their religion. It's scary, but it's the truth.

Alright, I agree with that, they should, of course take steps to avoid blowing up civillians (and they do), but it's the media blowing it out of proportion that is working for the enemy. We need to take steps to avoid the media doing this, not put our soldiers at risk. Sounds to me like the Americans need to use more electronic jamming and psy-ops and stop news from getting out of the area until it has been secured completely.

People need to be told -Civillians died in Vietnam too, but the rate was way higher then it is in this war. America is fighting for them, not against them. It's stupid and silly to not believe that.

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen People need to be told -Civillians died in Vietnam too, but the rate was way higher then it is in this war. America is fighting for them, not against them. It's stupid and silly to not believe that.

I can see it, you can see it... but can the people that matter see it?

Ask yourself that ( i would contribute more, but it's late over here and i need an early night )

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"Paul Simon" Progressive mixes available at www.diehardclubbers.co.uk

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Instead of just throwing insults how about you give a real argument and back up what you say. Otherwise you are the one comming off as fucking stupid.

No, YOU are fucking stupid. Iraqis are sub-human?

You, my friend, are a product of right-wing, warmonger propaganda. It's because of people like you that americans are seen so badly over here (europe) and all over the world.

Also you are a coward. I bet most people, including you, who talk about how this war is good and should be done to clean the terrorist threats would never be brave enough to join the army and go over there. You sit your ass all day in front of the computer and think you know anything about war, its causes and what should be done. A civilian casualty is a number to you, the death of a sub-human.
It makes me sad that people like you exist and live on the most powerful country on earth. Only if war reached your front door you would understand that every civilian killed is a father, brother, son lost.

I hope you are happy over there with your soldiers dying every day and the continous terrorist threats on your country, not to mention the declining level of civilian liberties and not being able to visit an arab country for the next 30 years. I'm just fine in my "second-world", semi-poor european country, where all civilian liberties are respected, and terrorist threats are a joke (until now - *crosses fingers*).

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Yeah it's the old "I doesn't matter what you do it's what your percived to do" chestnut.

Headlines like:

quote:

More than 600 Iraqis have been killed in fighting in Falluja since US occupation forces launched an offensive against resistance fighters in the town a week ago, say hospital sources.

quote:

The US military has said it will capture or kill Iraqi Shia leader Muqtada al-Sadr.

quote:

Egyptian President Husni Mubarak has told US President George Bush that he is deeply concerned about the crisis in Iraq.

And even worse the one cited by the post originator. These just can't keep poping up. The arab worlds just gonna go ape shit. And as for killing al-Sader........eh BAD idea. Millions of shia all over the world instant terroists. You need to realise america is doing about the best job it can in creating terroists.

quote:

The Iraqi's are sub-human and when you are in a war it's good to promote this thought among your army.

That is EXACTLY the problem you fool!!! You utter fool. For every person you kill it effects 5 more. This is why wars become personnel. And when wars become personnel control is difficult if not impossible. Americans are dying they all have mates who've died whats that going to do? Make them think like an idiot like you "The Iraqi's are sub-human and when you are in a war it's good to promote this thought among your army.".

If a force was occupying your country and treated you "sub-human" would you a) be less likely to attack them or b) more likely. You know the answer don't you. But it doesn't sound so brash and gung ho to admit it's along term process with it's foundation in mutal respect does it?

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

Last edited by Dervish on Apr-12-2004 at 22:18

quote:

Originally posted by borron You, my friend, are a product of right-wing, warmonger propaganda. It's because of people like you that americans are seen so badly over here (europe) and all over the world. Only if war reached your front door

The war has reached my front door. If I was capable of being in the army fighting I would be, but unfortunately I am disabled and have to rely on using my brain power.

I am not a product of right-wing propaganda because very little of it exists over here any more (except on AM radio). But I am the product of an expensive University education, love for the history channel, and a hard work ethic.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish You need to realise america is doing about the best job it can in creating terroists. That is EXACTLY the problem you fool!!! You utter fool.

Nobody in America is trying to create terrorists, but the liberal media holds most of the responsibility.

You turn to insults instead of giving valid arguments. Is that really necessary, are you incapable of having an intelligent conversation?

Intelligent conversation?!?!

All you've done up to this point is spew hate, blame liberals, and recite pro-war slogans, how is THAT intelligent?

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Intelligent conversation?!?! All you've done up to this point is spew hate, blame liberals, and recite pro-war slogans, how is THAT intelligent?

Cal, Cal, Cal. Please just give an argument, don't waste my time.

Read the post, if you really want I could number the arguments. Or perhaps make a diagram. Maybe make it into "good" and "bad" terms for you. Just to make it easier to understand.

quote:

Nobody in America is trying to create terrorists, but the liberal media holds most of the responsibility.

Holds most of the responciblity for what? Creating terrorists? Hmm mmmmm yeah.... maybes no.

I applogise for the insult and I pull it back. I just had a reaction to what you said. But please either explain or pull back your comment about either the Iraqis being sub-human or having the US army belive them to be so is a good idea.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen Nobody in America is trying to create terrorists, but the liberal media holds most of the responsibility.

Give me a f$cking break. First, please define what "liberal" media you are referring to. This could perhaps go off into a new thread, but I'm personally sick of this ridiculous rhetoric. This "liberal" labeling from the dittoheads is becoming tedious, and is almost like a gremlin for anything or anyone in disagreeance with the Limbaugh/Hannity/Fox News/Rupert Murdoch viewpoints. IOW, without supporting evidence it becomes a pathetic conservative copout.

Furthermore, are you seriously trying to tell me that the cause of terrorism is because of the "liberal" media?

Is this what your expensive education taught you about sound logic?

quote:

You turn to insults instead of giving valid arguments. Is that really necessary, are you incapable of having an intelligent conversation?

Well you turn to exaggeration and generalization plus the added benefit of insult, just for good measure. I fail to see how agreeing with calling anyone or any group/culture "sub-human" would invoke a reasonable debate for anyone, yet you concur with such crap and then ironically proceed to take the high road and yell out to those who follow the same name-calling path as yourself.

Sorry, I call bullshit on your debate tactics. If you honestly want to have a reaonable debate, perhaps you could cease from the seemingly deliberate nerve poking, and show a little more courtesy towards others.

Lastly:

quote:

War doesn't just involve bombs and guns, it involves psy-ops. This article is a good example of exactly the type of enemy we are fighting. With attitudes like this WW2 would have never been won and it's exactly the reason why Vietnam and Korea weren't. Sean Rayment should be put in jail for treason for this article.

Ms. Coulter, is that you?

Treason, eh? Wow, that darned freedom of speech thing just seems to just get in the way with your point of view? Oh wait, except if that speech is coming from Fox or Clear Channel, that is, right?

Or perhaps that same freedom of speech that allowed you to mindlessly accuse one of "treason", just because he disagrees with your view, should be protected as much as the person you accuse?

Of course there's psychology involved. Are you necessarily stating, however, that all wars have been won by treating the enemy as "sub-human"?

What about prisoners of war? Why did we hold prisoner camps then?
Should we not have done what the Nazi's did with the Jews, considering Nazis viewed Jews on the same level as we should have, according to you?

Or should we make all enemies as slaves, considering that "sub-human" terms was onced used to justify their usage as well?

By all means, please continue elaborating.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen The war has reached my front door. If I was capable of being in the army fighting I would be, but unfortunately I am disabled and have to rely on using my brain power.

Hmmm, now what Bush Administration member(s) does this remind me of? Just sounds so eerily familiar.....

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...