quote:

Originally posted by Izzy you kidding me? he's probably where they learned this shit from!

Of course it's figuratively meant as opposed to reality, with that said Iraq has a hopeless future if these are the kinds of people that want to have an influence in its future politics. The reason being that they will resort to the same methods to maintain any control they would get, just like Saddam

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quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Of course it's figuratively meant as opposed to reality, with that said Iraq has a hopeless future if these are the kinds of people that want to have an influence in its future politics. The reason being that they will resort to the same methods to maintain any control they would get, just like Saddam

true, and thats why i laugh when people blame these actions as a fault of the US... thats BS... the real reason this is happening has little to do with the US and more with the extremism that is/was supported in the middles east by saddam and religious fanatics

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus sub-human comes to mind

You guys might think this sounds strange from me given my views in other posts. But the people who do these kinda things. I.e. torture and so on, I've seen the Chechen vids and what happened with the four americans who were burnt and so on. Well I'd agree the word sub human does come to mind. I've said it before but you hve to ask what makes you a member of the human race and to me some of these people do step outside my defition of human.

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quote:

Originally posted by Izzy more with the extremism that is/was supported in the middles east by saddam and religious fanatics

I thought saddam hates the shiites

Can't the case be made that these people are first and foremost the enemy of the Iraqi people? While other countries such as Russia appear to be capitulating to the demands of the radicals, the final result of complete surrender would be to give these groups the oxygen they need to survive, thus enabling them to amass power by virtue of others' fear of them. Do you think such renegade groups are pro-democracy and reformist? They certainly don't appear to be. They seem, at best, amoral and as such, would be a threat to the rule of law and the establishment of civility in that country. These groups seem to be of the same mindset that has kept democracy and human rights from flourishing in the Middle East since time immemorial. I see them as being vastly destabilizing and a threat to the entire civilized world. Irrespective if one agrees or disagrees with the United States' reasons for going to war, one ought to agree that cooler heads must prevail in the Middle East. Those who subsist on ideologies that run counter to civil society necessarily cannot have a place at the table if for no other reason that you cannot negotiate with a madman. There are few things I would prefer more than to see the beginnings of democracy in the Arab world. And while I don't necessarily subscribe to German politician, Joschka Fischer's belief that it will take several hundred years before the Arab peoples have a truly functional democracy, I am growing increasingly pessimistic. The reason I am pessimistic is because I do not see ordinary citizens in the region demanding their right to freedom and autonomy. Perhaps they do, but I never hear about it in the media. That troubles me. Like everyone else, I just want there to be peace and happiness in the world. I suppose it will take more evolution on the part of human beings before that can become a reality.

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Last edited by cfyoung4 on Apr-14-2004 at 23:11

quote:

Originally posted by Dmatrox I thought saddam hates the shiites

that doesnt matter. the fact that saddam used these same tactics has legitmized the shiites to use these same actions to do as they please. i dont think i've ever seen a more fitting example to the phrase: "monkey see, monkey do"

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by cfyoung4 But can't the case be made that these people are also the enemy of the Iraqis as well? While other countries such as Russia appear to be capitulating, the final result of complete surrender would be to give these groups ruling power by virtue of others' fear of them. Do you think such renegade groups are pro-democracy and reformist? They certainly don't appear to be. They seem, at best, amoral and as such, would be a threat to the rule of law and the establishment of civility in that country. These groups seem to be of the same mindset that has kept democracy and human rights from flourishing in the Middle East since time immemorial. I see them as being vastly destabilizing and a threat to the entire civilized world. Irrespective if one agrees or disagrees with the United States' reasons for going to war, one ought to agree that cooler heads must prevail in the Middle East. Those who subsist on ideologies that run counter to civil society necessarily cannot have a place at the table if for no other reason that you cannot negotiate with a madman. There are few things I would prefer more than to see the beginnings of democracy in the Arab world. And while I don't necessarily subscribe to German politician, Joschka Fischer's belief that it will take several hundred years before the Arab peoples have a truly functional democracy, I am growing increasingly pessimistic. The reason I am pessimistic is because I do not see ordinary citizens in the region demanding their right to freedom and autonomy. Perhaps they do, but I never hear about it in the media. That troubles me. Like everyone else, I just want there to be peace and happiness in the world. I suppose it will take more evolution on the part of human beings before that can become a reality.

You make a very good point, I have always said that too many in the Arab World never speak up against there own leaders as opposed to the countries in Eastern Europe for example. I don't know when they will, if ever. So maybe Herr Fischer ist richtig, it will take centuries for full social changes to come around. As for the Italian hostages, Berlusconi says once again that Italy has no intention of pulling out of Iraq.

The savages moreover I guess expected Al-Jazeera to broadcast their disgusting filth as always, this time however it was a no go, as Occ says must be pretty disgusting. It will turn up on the net however, just a matter of time.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Perhaps these people fear change. They are more content to live a sub-human form of existence because the prospect of change and freedom is overwhelming and they would just as well prefer to live the same way they've been living for most, if not all, of their lives. It's a huge opportunity for someone--no wonder everyone is vying for power. They have only a short window before their hunger for power must be extinguished and someone else assumes official leadership of the country.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Perhaps these people fear change.

I think this has a LOT to do with it. The oppression of Sadam may have been severe, but it was constant. Under his rule, he developed an almost socialist state in which, although small, there were broad reaching government supported services. With the introduction of "democracy" many of these programs are no longer in place.

I wish I could find a transcript of the program I saw (I believe Dateline) immediately following the toppling of Sadam. After interviewing many Iraqis, the sentiment was two-fold. First, they expected an almost overnight change from their past living conditions, to as they put it "Hollywood." Secondly, they were outraged to learn that many of the services they had previously gotten for free were no longer in place, and that the high number of unemployed that had lived on government assistance were expected to find jobs.

To me it just seems as if it has taken the "Allies" too long to transform Iraq into a western style country, with all its frills and benefits, in the eyes of many Iraqis. Whereas immediately following the coalition takeover, there was an uneasy but present patience; this has dissolved into a feeling of frustration by many that manifest itself in these horrible extremist groups.

I don't think we underestimated the time and sacrifice that would go into transforming Iraq (at least I don't, the media may say differently). I think the Iraqi people underestimated the time and energy that THEY would need to put into transforming Iraq. And as this lack of patience and tolerance grows in the Iraqis, so do these horrible acts of violence.

To say that America "Created this enemy" in a thread about that "enemy" kidnapping and brutally murdering innocents seems to be ignoring the tragedy and justifying that act by saying that they have a reason to hate.

Im sorry, but rabid Anti-Americanism has its limits (fortunately) as to where it is appropriate. This is one of the places where it is inappropriate.

For me this act brings up a "tears of pride" kind of feeling. Its incredibly disturbing that those people somehow think they are doing the right thing (although that is giving them the extreme benefit of the doubt because I guarantee they know that brutally murdering civillians is one of those things that you shouldnt do) and they feel some weird compulsion to carry this through. Brings up memories of old screaming desert dervishes brandishing whatever they could fight with, but this time for the absolutely wrong reasons.

But, on the other hand, I have to feel good. Italy hasnt backed down (i HOPE they dont!) to these acts unlike some notable chickenshits of the day. Agree or not with the current situation you have to feel pride that the "old fashioned" idea of sticking to your guns through thick and thin and doing what you think is right despite the opposition is still alive. World War II's time of bygone heroes and uncompromising defiance to the enemy seems sadly missing these days.

Acts of terror, death, and hatred go unpunished, nay, rewarded by the meek countries that used to be some of the most bad ass peoples out there.

Props to Italy. I hope they stick through it and do everything for their own reasons, and not at the spittle flecked denunciations of some troglodytic fanatic.

Last edited by Orbax on Apr-15-2004 at 00:27

I bet those d**kless douchbags wore masks while they did it.
If your going to go as far as violent murdering on video to show the world you mean business, f**k it, show some real sack be recognized by your peers. Make your god proud.

These guys are hard?