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| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Losing Afghanistan? The Taliban is essentially gone and the country is preparing to have it's first free elections. Yeah, it's a lost cause. |
Yep, nothing but goooooood news out of afghanistan....
http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&ci...cat=afghanistan
When are those first free elections supposed to be held again?
| quote: | | Again, see above. Saddam is out, elections are coming, rape rooms are no more, mass graves are no more, |
elections are coming? Really?
rape rooms still exist bud, only it's American dicks, broomsticks, and chemical lights that are doing the fucking now...
Mass graves are being created fairly steadily now, look at the Fallujah soccer fields...
| quote: | | Iraq will not be a haven for dangerous men for much longer. |
Unless those dangerous men happen to be American contractors and CIA interrogators eh?
| quote: | | Oh, and the infrastructure is vastly improved/improving every day |
It's not vastly improved, it's marginally improved.
| quote: | | Iraqi's have said in surveys that while they aren't thrilled to have the U.S. in there, they are much happier that Saddam is gone and feel much better about their futures. Of course it hasn't gone as smoothly as people would've liked, but are you seriously calling it a failure? |
Iraq is an abysmal failure. We've got a chubby cleric with bad teeth holding an entire city (and a large portion of Baghdad) hostage, we've surrendered Fallujah, we're systematically abusing Iraqi prisoners (who even the military admits are mostly innocent), no international support, the coalition of the bribed is falling apart, April was the bloodiest month for US troops in Iraq (bloodier even that the real war) and May is looking pretty ugly as well... But hey, they're getting a new cell phone network so things can't be all bad, right?
| quote: | | Hey--Stryker is also the name of a company, spelled that way. Anyway, that's not even an issue. I guess you'd rather go with Kerry, who has voted against every major defense improvement proposal since the 1970's??? |
I'd rather go with a retarded five year old than shrub. Which is really really pathetic, because for his first 18 months I really liked him as president...
| quote: | | Oh, I forgot, Kerry voted against the body armor altogether! |
Well that's a bit of a mistatement there bud...
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=155
I can use an equally broad brush and say that Bush vetoed providing healthcare for Firefighters form the WTC.... equally true, but equally misleading... http://cgw.pennnet.com/Articles/Art...TICLE_ID=152200
Yes, the worst. Unless you can think of something more fucked up?
| quote: | | It's pretty bad, but you're implying that he's somehow directly responsible for what happened to those prisoners. |
As commander in chief, yes he is directly responsible. As Ike used to say, "the buck stops here." Or more specifically he said, "The President--whoever he is--has to decide. He can't pass the buck to anybody. No one else can do the deciding for him. That's his job." Funny that a republican who likes to talk about personal responsibility can't think of a single mistake that he's made, eh?
| quote: | | You're trying to transfer responsibility and direct it at someone you clearly dislike when the people who committed the actions are the ones you should be worried about. |
Ahh yes, because this is an issolated incident, right? The only abuse that has taken place in Iraq was what we saw in those photographs, right? There is no systematic and institutional abuse of prisoners, right? 
| quote: | | This doesn't even merit a response. You hold him fully responsible for 9/11, yet you attribute none of the responsibility to Clinton era policies which created a lot of the vulnerabilities that allowed for such attacks and "fiasco" to occur. Let's not forget that in 1998, regime change became the official U.S. policy on Iraq, and that Clinton, Kerry, and hundreds of other bipartisan and global sources all came to the same conclusions that Saddam posessed WMDs. Hell, he actually used them in the 90's. Their whereabouts do need to be determined. It is concerning. However, you imply that Iraq is something that Bush conjured up out of thin air. |
Where did I imply that? It is a statement of FACT, that our intelligence services FAILED, TWICE. I'm less pissed off about the fuckups than I am that Tenet and Rice are still employed!!!! Noone is ever accountable in the Bush administration, it's always blamed on Clinton or an underling... What happened to accountability?
| quote: | | We have a lot of enemies that we've chosen to ignore/appease over the last 30 years. Now someone is finally dealing with them and you're criticising the fact that we don't have enough military. I guess you'd prefer a guy like John Kerry who votes against defense initiatives--that would obviously fix the problem in your eyes. |
:spin: :spin: :spin:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127
More misinformation... hooray for the RNC propaganda machine, eh?
| quote: | | And you have evidence to support these claims(aside from Wolfowitz's gaffe)? |
| quote: | | You don't think freedom is worth any price? |
Holy fuckin shit man! If you think having 150,000 foreign troops occupying your country, installing a puppet government, and arbitrarily imprisoning and torturing your countrymen is free, well... I don't know what to say... Are Palestinians free too (and FYI, I think the Palestinians bring the shit on themselves)?
| quote: | | Yup, it sucks, but the men and women serving this country for the are generally proud to do their duty and probably don't appreciate you trying to speak for them. Their duty is to their country and their commander in chief. They don't have the luxury of sitting around and bitching like you do. |
Ahh yes, but they're happy to have you speak for them, right? Of course, I'm not really speaking for them, I'm simply repeating what military families are saying...
http://www.pstripes.com/article.asp...5&article=21575
| quote: | | Again, pinning the actions of a few bad apples on Bush is using faulty logic. It's a shame when you try to draw the conclusion that the whole army is corrupt because of the actions of a select few. Furthermore, the insurgents in Fallujah were killed because they attacked allied forces. I see nothing wrong with the retalliation, though it is obviously a situation that nobody prefers. At least the bad apples in the allied forces are dealt with and punished whereas such behavior under Saddam was not only the norm, it was probably encouraged and even rewarded. |
You miss the point entirely. Since we've now reuled out the WMD and imminent threat justifications, all we're left with is that Iraq was a war of liberation. Except when you turn the US army loose and they pull this kind of shit, it basically destroys the whole humanitarian aspect of the mission. So what exactly is it that we're supposed to be accomplishing in Iraq right now? No WMD, no threat, we've replaced Saddam's tortureers with our own (sure they're not as bad, but they're still TORTURING PEOPLE).
| quote: | | You can't expect everything to go exactly as planned all the time. I certainly don't think we're doing everything right, it's damn near impossible to bat 1000% 24/7, however given the circumstances, I think the administration is doing a damn good job with its efforts. |
Gosh, and if Bush would have acknowledged that little fact say... once in his entire career of fucking up, I might be willing to forgive him...
| quote: | Perhaps we are a bit overextended, does that mean we should just give up our efforts(which I believe are noble among other things)? Does an occasional misstep or failure make the whole operation a failure in your eyes? Perhaps that's a personal problem. Sure would be nice if politics played a lesser role in the big picture! |
Perhaps we're over extended? That's not even a quesiton. We ARE overextended. http://slate.msn.com/id/2099408 (it's not that I like slate.msn, it's jus that they keep popping up when I run searches...)
And we're not talking about an "occasional misstep," we're talking about one huge clusterfuck... Frankly, I can't think of a single thing we've done right so far... Sure on the tactical level our boys are kicking ass and taking names, but at the strategic level we have no plan (and if we ever had one it's been discarded long ago when they realized the "candies and flowers" were actually RPGs and roadside bombs).... Personally, I hope there is a way to salvage this pile of shit Bush has decided to stick our noses into, but I certainly don't think any of those fucktards in the oval office are capable of figuring the solution out...
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