quote:

Originally posted by biodigit Shakka, I'd have to disagree with you. There is a big difference between READING or HEARING that soldiers are dying than actually SEEING them drapped dead in their coffins. Images can have tremendous amount of effects on a human mind. All the images that we've seen from this war (well most of them) have been the CGI shock and awe effects. To the public eye its all a video game to them. Until they start to to actually SEE (note: that I didnt say hear or read) the horrid images of this war or any war for that matter, it wouldn't really have any effects on the public's mind. Just like Opus said, I have every right to see what our public servants have accomplished with the help of my tax money.

You guys are saying exactly what I said. Knowing and seeing are different things. As St. Andrew pointed out, seeing the actual coffins gets at people's emotions. War is not for those with a weak stomach. If you get off on viewing dead bodies and coffins, then I guess that's your thing. Media glorification of such only makes it worse. You don't like this war, you don't want us to be there, and the fact that there are actual dead bodies involved makes you sick.

And like I said, maybe the dead soldiers' families don't want the media parading around their loved ones' bodies trying to get that "Pulitzer Prize" photograph. Show some respect.

I don't need to go to ************* or *********** or *********** or whatever to know that there are terrible things going on in the world. It only serves to make my stomach turn. Do you guys visit these websites frequently because you NEED to SEE how bad things are? Or can you just conciously KNOW that terrible things happen every day? I know what my answer is.


Furthermore, if you think coffins full of bodies count as an "accomplishment from your tax dollars" I think you're pretty sick.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 What part of my statement is unclear to you? I am stating that while it is wholly appropriate for the Press to show the flag-draped casket of our former President, as well as showing the public pay their respects, while on the other hand it is somewhat hypocritical to censure the Press from showing flag-draped caskets of our fallen soldiers from the current war. I further clarified that I am not arguing that we should censure the President's casket from the press, if you logically follow my argument in that particular direction. Rather, that we should allow the Press to show without censureship the flag-draped caskets of the fallen soldiers who died for our country (in a somewhat similar manner as our former President). I find nothing odd with people paying respects to this man. I disagree with the majority of his decisions, yet I honor and deeply respect his place in American history. If I had lived in CA or D.C., I would likely pay my respects in person as well. But again, that was not my argument. I hope my point is more clear to you now. Shakka countered by stating that it was inappropriate to show the soldier's caskets during this time of war, because it would affect the country's overall morale and spirit. My response to his argument is that is exactly my point - if we decide to go to war, regardless of the correctness of our premises of doing so, I firmly believe the public has every bit a right to know exactly what we are getting into. This entails economic, foreign relations, moral and ethical. We did elect these individuals to make the wisest decisions for us. They are public servants. Therefore it is the right of the public to know exactly what our public servants have involved us with on every account. It is unprecedented for this Administration to attempt to hide the downsides of a monumental decision like a war, and I fully disagree with its censureship. War is hell, as they say, and this Administration has no right to put a fucking candy coat on that fact.

it was never unclear, your motivations
my point being that you are looking way too far into the frenzy IMO.

the DOD had every right to piss and moan about the distribution and use of what they felt were their pics. like it or not, they reserve the right to protect their own, but in the end were the pics ever cencored?

I just think you got sucked into the politicizing of the whole deal.

I was watching on the news this morning people passing by the coffin. Then it struck me when I saw this one woman crying. For god sake, it isn't as though she personally knew him, why is she getting so emotional?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 it is wholly appropriate for the Press to show the flag-draped casket of our former President, as well as showing the public pay their respects, while on the other hand it is somewhat hypocritical to censure the Press from showing flag-draped caskets of our fallen soldiers from the current war.

That was my point. The way this administration likes to cherry pick facts and censor what the public sees. They treat the public like children who need their news filtered for them, call it Rated G (Government approved).

___________________
GIGANTIC CUNT

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka You guys are saying exactly what I said. Knowing and seeing are different things. As St. Andrew pointed out, seeing the actual coffins gets at people's emotions. War is not for those with a weak stomach. If you get off on viewing dead bodies and coffins, then I guess that's your thing. Media glorification of such only makes it worse. You don't like this war, you don't want us to be there, and the fact that there are actual dead bodies involved makes you sick.

sorry, i just don't get the logic. Sure, dead bodies gets me off, war gets me off. Why? cause war is not a good thing. if people don't understand that, i feel sorry for them. If you can get to understand what war really is about then sure it would be a good thing to show them those coffins to make them somehow understand more what this really is about, sacrificing lives. And if you see this, and still are all for war, then so be it, but i don't get the thing with try to hide this. I have nothing against media showing pictures from Holocaust or from Saddams regime's time or any bad thing, if that makes people realize what this is all about then I see no reason to hide this.

quote:

And like I said, maybe the dead soldiers' families don't want the media parading around their loved ones' bodies trying to get that "Pulitzer Prize" photograph. Show some respect.

It's not like they are showing the faces of them or so. that would be somehow wrong indeed.

quote:

I don't need to go to ************* or *********** or *********** or whatever to know that there are terrible things going on in the world. It only serves to make my stomach turn. Do you guys visit these websites frequently because you NEED to SEE how bad things are? Or can you just conciously KNOW that terrible things happen every day? I know what my answer is.

you doesn't have to take things to the extreme. i have no earlier experiences with any of the above sites, and i don't currently want to check them out... i get your point, however as i just said, no need to take things to the extreme. we are talking about showing people in coffins, not showing people get murder in action. But yeah somehow i can see how those sites would give you a better experience and understanding of how cruel the world is much like the berg video made (tho if you checked things like this too often you would probably get blunt). Point is, a picture says more than a thousand words, so if the Bush admin think war is the right thing, they should not be affraid of showing the backsides of it.

quote:

Furthermore, if you think coffins full of bodies count as an "accomplishment from your tax dollars" I think you're pretty sick.

really, he has a point, they are killed fighting for the government and the government is sponsored by tax money =)

so what's really sick is the governments decission to go to this war in the first place.

I guess saving western Europe from the Nazi's was a sick decision that we're worse off for having done. War isn't about death, war is about idealogical differences that can't be reconciled by diplomatic means. Not to mention countless other reasons.

Death is part of war, though.

Reagan's ceremony in Washington is on right now, all major national and cable networks. America, once again showing the world how to do it right.

98 degrees F in Washington, and hundreds of thousands of people lining the streets in silence.

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FLUSHED THE JOHNS!

Last edited by imokruok on Jun-09-2004 at 21:23

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I guess saving western Europe from the Nazi's was a sick decision that we're worse off for having done. War isn't about death, war is about idealogical differences that can't be reconciled by diplomatic means.

There are good and necessarily wars (attacking hitler (who was the one starting the war), attacking Afghanistan (which also kinda started a war with you) etc) and there are those shitty ones (Vietnamn (they just didn't think like you...), Iraq (won't argue about the reasons here ) etc) which you should not start. I hope you see the difference.

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Not to mention countless other reasons.

like oil?

sorry was just too obvious

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Death is part of war, though.

true, if it wasn't war shouldn't be bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo it was never unclear, your motivations my point being that you are looking way too far into the frenzy IMO. the DOD had every right to piss and moan about the distribution and use of what they felt were their pics. like it or not, they reserve the right to protect their own,

How is this protecting their own? What the hell makes it "theirs"?

Does the public not have a right to visually see the caskets of the slain? Let's keep in mind that we're not talking open caskets here - they are flag draped with high regard to respect. So in all seriousness, who is overreacting here in regards to showing the fallen soldiers?

quote:

but in the end were the pics ever cencored?

No, but that wasn't deliberate. Why was taking pictures considered off-limits in the first place?

quote:

I just think you got sucked into the politicizing of the whole deal.

Quite right, which is why I do not understand why we were not given access to this respectable viewing of fallen soldiers who fought and died for their country. Come to think of it, I could also cut my argument the other way - would it not be MORE respectful to see these brave soldiers and pay our respects for their bravery through pictures?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I guess saving western Europe from the Nazi's was a sick decision that we're worse off for having done. War isn't about death, war is about idealogical differences that can't be reconciled by diplomatic means. Not to mention countless other reasons. Death is part of war, though.

Shakka you really don't even know how to logically argue a position. Just in the span of a short paragraph you contradict yourself "war isn't about death...Death is part of war". What happened did you get the conservative fortune cookies you were writing from mixed up? Maybe you should go fight in a war before extolling its virtues.

___________________
GIGANTIC CUNT

Hey maybe to really see the cost of war they should show the body parts and limbs too on tv and maybe make a traveling circus show of the dead bodies so we can smell and taste death in our mouths and see it firsthand as their families weep. Then we can parade the grieving families around too...

The whole point of that argument doesn't cut it because the photos weren't taken at a burial ceremony where they would have been legal, grieving families and all, but they were taking the photos in an ILLEGAL place as deemed by law and the person commiting the crime should be punished. That was the whole point of that rediculous fiasco.