quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Simple as that. Europeans believe they know whats best for you. Americans believe in the individual.

It sounds good when you read it, but it's a peculiar comment considering that the liberal philosophy is due to a European, Locke, and the meddling in other countries affairs exhibited by the current US government.

Maybe it should be restated like:
"Each european believe that he knows what is best for all other Europeans.
Americans believe in the individual American (as long as he is not gay or muslim)."

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic It sounds good when you read it, but it's a peculiar comment considering that the liberal philosophy is due to a European, Locke, and the meddling in other countries affairs exhibited by the current US government. Maybe it should be restated like: "Each european believe that he knows what is best for all other Europeans. Americans believe in the individual American (as long as he is not gay or muslim)."

Well Muslims lived fine in America up until the whole events around 9/11, even after the first World Trade Center attack there was not a problem, maybe to the detriment as the second attack would demonstrate, think about it. As for gays they are here to stay and while some may not approve of their lifestyle they are what they are and will not change for anyone. Eventually the Supreme Court is going to have to clearly establish the criterias for gay rights I believe to put to bed the issue of same sex marraiges one way or another. If two people are happy together, pay taxes and don't harm others why should they face discrimination, but that's another subject.

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quote:

Higher GDP per capita allows the average American to spend about $9,700 more on consumption every year than the average European. So Yanks have by far more cars, TVs, computers and other modern goods. "Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says.

Am I the only one that finds this disturbing? If so, it reflects perfectly the Capitalist state-of-mind that is present in the American society. Who cares if you have 0, 5 or 10 cars??? Does it make you happier? Does it feed the dying children in Africa or does it stop wars around the world?

I think in The Netherlands the standard of living doesn't really need to be improved. There are not many homeless people, an insignificant number (I wouldn't even know how few) of people live below the poverty line, the unemployment rate is low...I can go on...what more do you need

I know this is not what the article is really about, but why is there a need to make such comparisons! Could it even be that the US GDP figure is somewhat irrelevant because you have so many overly-paid people living in your country?

It's not that I feel the desperate need to defend my continent (although I have to face the fact that my Pro-NL behaviour is stronger now that the Euro 2004 is happening, haha), but I just felt like I needed to say this

I might be the only person, btw, but I'm very happy our taxes are this high. We would have to miss out on a lot of great stuff if they lowered the tax-rate. And the DUtch may be moaning about it, they should see the difference!! (go live in Mexico for a year, for example)

Hope I didn't make anyone suspect what my haircolour is, whahaha

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quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic It sounds good when you read it, but it's a peculiar comment considering that the liberal philosophy is due to a European, Locke, and the meddling in other countries affairs exhibited by the current US government. Maybe it should be restated like: "Each european believe that he knows what is best for all other Europeans. Americans believe in the individual American (as long as he is not gay or muslim)."

I don't think gays or muslims are treated any worse in the USA than religious fundamentals, Americans, or Eastern Europeans are treated in Europe.

As for what Europe once was does not give it any claim to the greatest it does not posess today. Further many of the enlightenment thinkers agreed that such thought of the individual as still reflected by Americans were only able to exist in the New World.

Iraq clearly demonstrates the USA resolve of the individual. They are there now to make sure that the Iraqis are powerful enough to have their own individual rights and have the ability to preserve those rights. It has not chose to impose a new monarch, or imperical/colonial rule over the Iraqis such as the Europeans had done to it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Miss Proximus Am I the only one that finds this disturbing? If so, it reflects perfectly the Capitalist state-of-mind that is present in the American society. Who cares if you have 0, 5 or 10 cars??? Does it make you happier? Does it feed the dying children in Africa or does it stop wars around the world? I think in The Netherlands the standard of living doesn't really need to be improved. There are not many homeless people, an insignificant number (I wouldn't even know how few) of people live below the poverty line, the unemployment rate is low...I can go on...what more do you need I know this is not what the article is really about, but why is there a need to make such comparisons! Could it even be that the US GDP figure is somewhat irrelevant because you have so many overly-paid people living in your country? It's not that I feel the desperate need to defend my continent (although I have to face the fact that my Pro-NL behaviour is stronger now that the Euro 2004 is happening, haha), but I just felt like I needed to say this I might be the only person, btw, but I'm very happy our taxes are this high. We would have to miss out on a lot of great stuff if they lowered the tax-rate. And the DUtch may be moaning about it, they should see the difference!! (go live in Mexico for a year, for example) Hope I didn't make anyone suspect what my haircolour is, whahaha

We also had few homeless people until Reagan's Administration.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c...&type=printable


I'm not proposing we jump off the cliff into a Netherlands style government though.

Last edited by DaveSZ on Jun-20-2004 at 02:13

well you never know which great opportunities you may find down that cliff

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I say if you got the money spend it. Why the hell not. If I was making a few mill a year I'd sure as heck have a couple $5,000,000 houses and 10 cars too along with designer wardrobes and lots of investments. It seems to me the only people that say money doesn't make you happy are the people that don't have it which includes me but I've known people with lots of money and they seem VERY happy, moreso if they worked their asses offf for it and weren't just trust fund babies. I think you appreciate it more when you can say you had a nissan or toyota as a kid and now you have that BMW or Ferrari that you always wanted as a kid. I don't know if this is American type thinking but seems quite logical to me.

I don't understand what you work for if you don't work for a better way of life. It seems ike your job would become meaningless and drag if you just go to work not expecting to ever try to get a raise or work your way up the chain. Most of the super rich do give to charity, sometimes out of kindness, but many times because it lowers your tax bracket. Bill Gates is one example with his extensive work in Africa on the mission to cure aids. The guy has spent billions doing this and building schools and libraries around the country and he didn't have to do a thing.

Theres quite a few affluent people in Europe too, in fact the most expensive house in the world was recently sold in England and you can't honestly say that Europeans don't like their sports cars and material posessions, especially with companies such as Porsche, Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini, BMW, Mercedes, Mclaren, etc being in Europe.

As one of my sociology professors once said about money...

"Money doesn't buy happiness, but it's next to impossible to be happy without it."

Depends how you look at it off course. Poverty in here is like 0.000001%. When I break a leg I get tons of social payments so I'll be fine. It's, as mentioned before, the difference on taxes/social requirements. Maybe that's why all those people from the Middle East countries come over here...

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quote:

Originally posted by Miss Proximus I know this is not what the article is really about, but why is there a need to make such comparisons! Could it even be that the US GDP figure is somewhat irrelevant because you have so many overly-paid people living in your country?

Actually, it is a valid point you are raising. If a comparison was made for the minimum wages in the US and Europe, or for the number of people earning more than the average, I think the statistics would be reversed.
However, such statistics would be better suited for arguing that no one is really bad off in Europe compared to the US, which is not really of importance for the future strength of the European economy. So if this is a "US vs. Europe in general"-thread, then your point is great, but if it is a "Europe have a problem"-thread then it's a bit off. I cannot tell the true nature of this thread, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I don't think gays or muslims are treated any worse in the USA than religious fundamentals, Americans, or Eastern Europeans are treated in Europe. As for what Europe once was does not give it any claim to the greatest it does not posess today. Further many of the enlightenment thinkers agreed that such thought of the individual as still reflected by Americans were only able to exist in the New World.

Gee, Yoepus - you have done it again. I point to problems in the US, which would render the rosy picture you have painted invalid, and you "defend" yourself by attacking Europe. Why don't you try to respond to the actual points for once.

And for that "Americans and Eastern Europeans are treated bad in Europe"-thing, apart from being wholly absurd wrt. the Eastern Europeans, have you anything to back up that claim?

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Iraq clearly demonstrates the USA resolve of the individual. They are there now to make sure that the Iraqis are powerful enough to have their own individual rights and have the ability to preserve those rights. It has not chose to impose a new monarch, or imperical/colonial rule over the Iraqis such as the Europeans had done to it.

The Iraqis do not want democracy and capitalism - how many people need to be killed before that message gets through? If you really believed in the individual, you should have let the Iraqis depose of Saddam themselves, or have lend a hand when groups of Iraqis rebelled following Desert Storm, instead of sitting back and letting them get slaughtered.
It seems to me that the Bush administration really thinks it knows what is best for other people. Take the comments about Turkey and whether it should be accepted for inclusion in the EU, for instance: Why on earth should that be any concern of a US administration?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Gee, Yoepus - you have done it again. I point to problems in the US, which would render the rosy picture you have painted invalid, and you "defend" yourself by attacking Europe. Why don't you try to respond to the actual points for once. And for that "Americans and Eastern Europeans are treated bad in Europe"-thing, apart from being wholly absurd wrt. the Eastern Europeans, have you anything to back up that claim? The Iraqis do not want democracy and capitalism - how many people need to be killed before that message gets through? If you really believed in the individual, you should have let the Iraqis depose of Saddam themselves, or have lend a hand when groups of Iraqis rebelled following Desert Storm, instead of sitting back and letting them get slaughtered. It seems to me that the Bush administration really thinks it knows what is best for other people. Take the comments about Turkey and whether it should be accepted for inclusion in the EU, for instance: Why on earth should that be any concern of a US administration?

Certainly you cannot argue that in Eastern European countries such as Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia to name a few the Romani populations of those countries are treated as second class citizens. They are often referred to as blacks by the general population, education is usually not available or segregated when offered.

As for Americans being treated bad in Europe wouldn't surprise me since people always try to get political when they hear someone is American, I have had friends who have gone to Ireland to visit and as soon as people hear that they are American they start asking a whole bunch of questions centered on politics, such as how could you elect George Bush, why are Americans so ignorant of other people, along with the other usual inferences. Never mind that over half of America didn't vote for Bush, which means odds are you just might be speaking to someone who disagrees with his policies, but do some Europeans take the time to know that, no, they simply want to argue politics because you are American and have already been generalized. When I go on vacation I don't want to talk politics but to relax and enjoy another culture, hope many Europeans realize this as well.

When it comes to Bush and the administration certainly they have no business in E.U. affairs but we could just as easily say that Europe has no business in American affairs by that token of sentiment and I wouldn't mind seeing both exercised. I believe with the issue of Turkey and the E.U. too much of a deal is being made on your part when the U.S. says it supports E.U. membership for Turkey, either way it is not up to America, but Turkey is an ally and the U.S is simply voicing support for that ally, what difference will it make when France, Germany, U.K all favor Turkish memerbership as well. I will never sell America short because I know what this nation ultimately stands for and administrations come and go.

P.S. America has seen other rough patches in its history and has managed to strengthen and grow throughout it all, all who predict the downfall of America seriously underestimate the spirit of this nation when all is said and done. America could be passive, isolationist and inward looking but will that be for the better in the world of today?

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras