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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Israel Beats Pal. Intifada
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Palestinian
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by rupert
What a laugh. The combat has died down for now. As in all Protracted Social Conflicts the conflict has its ups and downs. But the conflict will not end until the fundamental causes of why the fighting occurs are addressed. And Israel has no intentions of doing that.

In the long run Israel will lose because of some fundamental basic and unavoidable facts.

1) its population is declining relative to that of its neighbours. The arab birthrate is skyrocketing compared to that of the Jews and there is no mass migration of Russian Jews on the horizon to address it. In fact many of the people who migrated to Israel are looking to leave, why live in a warzone where the government spends money on defence when you can live in another country which spends money on welfare.

2) it is poor people rather than rich people who are more likely to want to fight because they have less to lose from violence. Because they largely are denied to work in Israel, Palestinian poverty is increased and will increase even more as the population increases.

3) the Palestinians are more willing to die.

4) Iran will inevitably get nuclear weapons and will have the capacity to deliver them to Israel with rockets from Pakistan or North Korea, thus eliminating Israels middle-east nuclear monopoly.

5) Islamic fundamentalists will be emboldened by their inevitable victory over the USA in Iraq and will turn their attention to other states in the middle east: like Israel. They see the americans beaten in Fallujah, and Fallujah to them resembles Gaza. The Palestinians have been largely deprived of access to sophisticated weaponry, thus resorting to suicide bombing but with the collapse of Iraq brings the potential access to real weapons to fight Israel like RPG's and machine guns.

6) The governments of the Middle-east are far more pro-western than their people. For example the government of Egypt would never have signed a peace treaty with Israel if it was a democracy. A large slice of the arab population, straight out hate Israel, viewing the Jews as European invaders, and democratisation of the midddle east will not lead to peace but greater ethnic identification with the Palestinians who truth be told have been largely abandoned by the arab governments in the past.

The real war in the middle east is yet to begin


Fuckin nicely said! Point five is my favourite. I still don't understand how the US will bring democracy to the ME when it's the dictators and monarchs who support the US and not the people.

Let me add that the Intifada will never end as long as human rights are violated and Palestinians not given their independence. Suicide bombings may have been put to a stop or quieted down for a while but that will only give the non-violent front of the Intifada more voice and Israel can't do shit about that. Our population will also eventually eat up zionism.


___________________
*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

Old Post Jun-27-2004 12:06  Palestine
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

Hi rupert.

How are you?

Good, anyway just wanted to prove you wrong.

And I'm not even going to do it by arguing politics with you.

Lets begin...

quote:
Originally posted by rupert
What a laugh. The combat has died down for now. As in all Protracted Social Conflicts the conflict has its ups and downs. But the conflict will not end until the fundamental causes of why the fighting occurs are addressed. And Israel has no intentions of doing that.


Israel has no intention of addressing the fundamental causes, right? This is your premise?

Now.. lets get to the fundamental causes/facts that Israel refuses to address that will bring in its ultimate demise.

quote:

1) its population is declining relative to that of its neighbours. The arab birthrate is skyrocketing compared to that of the Jews and there is no mass migration of Russian Jews on the horizon to address it. In fact many of the people who migrated to Israel are looking to leave, why live in a warzone where the government spends money on defence when you can live in another country which spends money on welfare.


Israel is addressing this concern.
As you well know the demographic situation of the Jews in Israel relative to the Arab world has been quiet pathetic for the past 150 or so years. Today lets say you have about 5 million Jews in Israel, you have close to 250 million Arabs around it. The Arab birthrate has always been superior. Israel has addressed this concern. Instead or rellying on numbers, they relly on tactics, strategy, wisdom, and technology.

The Arab birthrate has no effect on Israel whatsoever. They have always had numbers, they always will. One might question a strategy base don numbers in the day and age of nuclear weapons as well.

And if you are refering to Arabs within Israel, there is no demographic threat here. They're birthrate are lower than their commrades in the rest of Arabia, and Israeli religious fundamentals still breed like rabbits.

quote:

2) it is poor people rather than rich people who are more likely to want to fight because they have less to lose from violence. Because they largely are denied to work in Israel, Palestinian poverty is increased and will increase even more as the population increases.


Your argument is complete speculation. Most suicide bombers are in fact from families that are well-off. Please recall those terrorist who struck the WTC - Saudi born - univeristy educated - well off.
Rich nor poor nor gender seems to have an effect on terrorism.

Aside from distributing condoms, there is indeed not much Israel can do in this regard. So this fact (if it is a fact) they can not address.

quote:

3) the Palestinians are more willing to die.


And we are more willing to let them. Big whoop

quote:

4) Iran will inevitably get nuclear weapons and will have the capacity to deliver them to Israel with rockets from Pakistan or North Korea, thus eliminating Israels middle-east nuclear monopoly.


Clearly Iran has stated it has no intention of producing the bomb - therefore I have no clue what the hell you are talking about

But - Israel is pursuing activities that will prevent this outcome. They are as you would say "intetionally trying to address this fundamental fact".

Even if Israel is not successful in preventing such an outcome. It has already situated itself as to neutralize the future Iranian nuclear arsnel.

quote:

5) Islamic fundamentalists will be emboldened by their inevitable victory over the USA in Iraq and will turn their attention to other states in the middle east: like Israel.


Again wrong.
Israel is actively trying to help the USA lead a victory in Iraq, recall:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=190568

Or as you would say - they have the intention to change this fundamental 'fact'.

quote:

6) The governments of the Middle-east are far more pro-western than their people. For example the government of Egypt would never have signed a peace treaty with Israel if it was a democracy. A large slice of the arab population, straight out hate Israel, viewing the Jews as European invaders, and democratisation of the midddle east will not lead to peace but greater ethnic identification with the Palestinians who truth be told have been largely abandoned by the arab governments in the past.


Well I guess again you are wrong. Even though on this issue I completely disagree with you. You say democracy in the middle-east is bad for the west. Well than you have to applaud Israel from doing nothing to destroy but preserving Palestinian tyranny instead.

Afterall if democracy is worse for the Arabs, as they are more hate filled than their leaders. We should all applaud Israel's brave forsight into preserving the throne of Arafat in attempt to prevent a real Palestinian democracy.

Hip hip horray. Israel clearly has this intention to change a fundamental fact too.

quote:
The real war in the middle east is yet to begin

Are you a betting man?



I'm done.


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Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

Old Post Jun-27-2004 17:36  Israel
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

Funny you should say the intifada is over...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/3845069.stm

Old Post Jun-27-2004 20:11  England
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
1)its population is declining relative to that of its neighbours. The arab birthrate is skyrocketing compared to that of the Jews and there is no mass migration of Russian Jews on the horizon to address it

Like Yeopus said, numbers make very little difference in the contemporary world. Altho I dont think there is much chance of nukes being used, modern technology including aircraft, cruise missiles, etc, are easily deployable by Israel and less so by its Arab neighbours - a look at the Arab-Israeli wars should take numerical advantage out of the equasion...

quote:
4) Iran will inevitably get nuclear weapons and will have the capacity to deliver them to Israel with rockets from Pakistan or North Korea, thus eliminating Israels middle-east nuclear monopoly.

And Iraq was gonna get nukes too! Dont know about N Korea (and I'm sure taking their economy into account they would be looking to make a bit of mullah*) but Iran wont get any nukes from Pakistan in my opinion!

*ladies and gentlemen, the first Iranian punchline on TA, thankyou!

quote:
democratisation of the midddle east will not lead to peace

Oh come now! Surely you dont still think democracy means equality of power?!?! Bloody marxists! I am under no misconceptions that democracy in any country, especially news ones is more in economic terms than in power terms. Democracy = wealth and more wealth = less religion (which is the problem in this war on terror)

Any new democratic government (from the Middle East) will soon realise that it needs economics to work and for that it needs the west and if they dont realise that, they will become a poor shitty country, like France...

Old Post Jun-27-2004 20:27  England
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
and if they dont realise that, they will become a poor shitty country, like France...


Georgey, my good longtime friend! How have you been oh buddy-buddy?



___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

Old Post Jun-28-2004 04:27  Israel
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dj_ilan_yosef
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Global Ambassador

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Georgey, my good longtime friend! How have you been oh buddy-buddy?





___________________
We don’t thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient.

Old Post Jun-28-2004 05:03  Israel
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Georgey, my good longtime friend! How have you been oh buddy-buddy?



Not bad, been watching Euro 04 and feeling quite xenophobic to certain European nationalities!

Old Post Jun-28-2004 18:26  England
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St_Andrew
I <3 NYC



Registered: May 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Not bad, been watching Euro 04 and feeling quite xenophobic to certain European nationalities!


Old Post Jun-28-2004 18:43  Europe
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rupert
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: bris vegas

Where to start,

The population issue is essential for two reasons. Throughout history conflict has been closely associated with surges in population. Population pressure forces nations or ethnic groups into predatory behaviour in order to survive. Competition over resources, predation and fear of attack/miscalculation are invariably the source of conflict and war, ethnicity and religion are secondary and are used as a justification for agressive behaviour.

The middle east is currently undergoing an enormous population surge whereas most of the rest of the developed world has an ageing population. A population that outruns the capacity of the government and economy to support it is in serious trouble. People dont just sit around idly they look for someone to blame. Racial hatred, revolutions are intrinsically linked to economic conditions.

The converse of the population issue is that a state in order to be secure needs to feel it has advantages relative to its neighbours. Great power status is linked to population, military strength and the capacity of the economy to support that military. See the work of Paul Kennedy.

A growing population that can be supported by its economy means an increase in the taxpayer base and more importantly gives the government more soldiers.

As a general rule the side which has the greatest military technology wins. But superiority in numbers, a larger economic base and home ground advantage are better . Numerous examples demonstrate this.

Germany started WW2 with the most modern war machine in the world easily conquering all of Europe. However the German army was ground into the dust by the Soviet Union. The German army like the USA and Israel placed great store in training, the best equipment and high morale. But it was annihilated by the Soviet Union which had a vastly larger resource and economic base than the Germans and vastly superior numbers. The Western allies may have supplied material support but most Soviet equipment was home made. World War 2 was won on the Eastern front. See the work of John Mearscheimer Tragedy of Great Power Politics.

A better example is Algeria. The French colonists like the Israelis thought they could have a little slice of Europe in the Middle East. They thought wrong. France had measurably greater military technology than the Algerians. Despite hundreds of thousands of Algerians slaughtered, the Algerians won. There are no French presence in Algeria now.

Lebanon. In an effort to smash the PLO and the Syrian army Israel invaded Lebanon in the early eighties. Israels superior airpower smashed the armies of Syria and destroyed the PLO presence in Lebanon for good. It defeated those groups because it had superior technology and the PLO and Syria fought on Israels terms. Israel still lost the war in Lebanon because Hizbullah refused to fight on Israels terms. Despite killing vastly more Lebanese, the Israeli army is not set up to fight a prolonged counter insurgency war, it is set up to fight Clausewitzian wars ( wars between states, with war being conflict by other means) Without the goodwill and active support from the population Clausewitzian armies cannot beat insurgencies. For a recent example see the conflict in Chechnya where a Russian army has never beaten irregular forces. For reference see Lieven's Chechnya: Tombstone of Russian Power.

Insurgencies are typically waged by poor people because rich people have more to lose by fighting. This point is demonstrated by the terrorist groups ETA and the real IRA who operate in wealthy countries and have wage a low scale insurgency for a long time but who have low levels of active support. All in all very few people have died because those terrorist groups have difficulty mobilising support from their constituent population. They might be sympathetic to the cause but self interest ie holding down a job and paying the bills means only the most fanatical become terrorists. Compare them to the FARC and the Tamil tigers. Being an insurgent makes sense because the guerrilla is unlikely to have well paid employment.

Research has causally linked conflict with the level of economic development. Studies of civil wars show that it is economic development rather than any other criteria which makes a region prone to conflict. See Collier and Hoeffler, Fearon and Laitin. Collier and Hoeffler's work can be accessed from the World Bank webpage.

The 9/11 hijackers are a poor example of insurgents. No doubt Bin Laden picked Saudis to fly the planes in order to drive a wedge between the USA and Saudi Arabia. It worked.

Superior technology does not guarantee military success. Humans are adaptive to their enemies, either they adopt their enemies tactics and equipment or they innovate and get around their enemies advantages. See the work of Keegan and also Unrestricted Warfare, by Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui.

Nuclear weapons, F16's and cruise missilles are out of the reach of insurgents so they find new ways to attack. The best bang for the buck weapon devised is the suicide bomber. They are far cheaper to use than to train a soldier and they cause widespread mayhem and panic because they achieve suprise. That is why numerous insurgencies use them. Chechnya, Israel, Sri Lanka have all seen the use of suicide bombers.

The use of suicide bombers may be couched in religious terms but is in fact an economically efficient tactic of warfare. For the economics of suicide bombing see:

Rational Martyrs vs. Hard Targets: Evidence on the Tactical Use of Suicide Attacks by Eli Berman David D. Laitin

Willingness to die becomes an absolute key to success. In an insurgency the government troops are typically reluctant soldiers. They may want to serve their country but they would much prefer to minimise risks and get home to the wife and kids. The government places a higher value on the lives of its soldiers than does the insurgency. Accordingly government forces will use whatever tactics minimises the chance of dying which invariably plays right into the hands of the insurgents. Heavy bombardments, airstrikes are invariably used in counter insurgency operations. Despite any attempts to minimise civilian losses, houses get destroyed and non-combatants get killed. Indeed the insurgents may put them in harms way to make sure that they get hurt. This benefits the insurgents as they lead to more recruits down the track.

Democracy itself doesnt help stop wars and does not lead to a reduction in religious belief. The USA is one of the most religious countries in the world and the worlds most economically advanced. Democracy does mean however that the political leaders have to pay closer attention to the wants of the population. If the population wants war, it gets it. Both Britain, France and Germany had parliaments based on almost universal suffrage prior to World War 1. The governments and economic elites at the time were extremely loath to enter war but enter war they did because of fear.

The need for state security is a far greater determinant of state action than the nature of the regime in charge. Iran will get nuclear weapons eventually irrespective of what Israel does. Indeed their need for security means they must have them come what may. Pakistan bent all its will to get nuclear weapons when India got them, and it is developing rockets which can deliver them as far as Europe. Why would they need to do that? Rumour has it that the Pakistani nuclear research was partially funded by the Saudis and I know for a fact was financed by the illicit selling of nuclear technology to Iran. That was covered in a 4 Corners documentary on Australian television.

Israels attempt to support the Kurds as a wedge against Iran is fraught with extreme danger. The Kurds safest option is a federal Iraq. All Iraqs neigbours are loath to see Kurdish independance because this threatens their territorial integrity and therefore its survival. Syria, Turkey and Iran and the Kurds are motivated by fear. Security is paramount. If the Kurds see that belonging to Iraq doesnt make it safe for them they will try for independance. Islamic fundamentalists in contrast loath and despise the current middle east order. If Israel is training the Kurds and the Islamic fundamentalists know they will attack the Kurds both to attack their hated enemy and go to paradise and shake up the middle east order. Thus the Kurds will be forced to seek independance because a federal Iraq wont protect their interests. Kurds in Turkey, Syria and Iran make seek to join them and this would not be tolerated by their governments.

Turkey, currently an Israel ally will abandon Israel for supporting the Kurds.

Iraq is much like the Balkans prior to World War 1 with many powers with competing interests. Iraq is not an ethnically homogenous entity making it unstable which is no doubt why the Sunni fundamentalists have been attacking Shia religious centres. Obviously Iran does not want that to happen and is in all likelihood supporting the Shia in the south, much as the Israelis are supporting the Kurds in the north. The chances for political stability in that environment are slim.

Uncertainty breeds revolution, the chances of many Middle East states existing in their current form in 10 years cannot be guaranteed.

Old Post Jun-29-2004 11:12  Australia
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