quote:

Originally posted by davinox angry oppinion. anyways, it was fucking stupid, i totally agree. i think its interesting that that same shit happens in fraternities all the time, but that's American and tradition, so that's ok. (actually fraternity hazing is worse, no one has died from prison abuse yet several college kids die every year due to hazing)

This Limbaugh-like comparison really makes me sick. Are you certain you wish to stand by this comparison? I had a number of close friends who were in frats in colleges, a handful were roomates of mine, and granted there were some pretty outlandish stuff goin' on that they had to put up with.

The differences between frat hazing and prison tortures is so vast and yet requires so little common sense, it really amazes me that idiot ultra-right wing Bush apologists would even try to make such a disgusting comparison.

Did the prisoners have a choice to put up with the tortures?

Did they ever shove broom sticks up your asses?

Did they ever strip you naked and sick big ass dogs on you?

Did they ever electrocute your fucking balls? Did they ever threaten it?

Did they ever beat the living shit out of you? I mean really, BEAT the living shit to the point of broken bones, failed organs, etc?

Did they ever force you to give another man a fucking blowjob? How about force you to fuck him?

Did anyone in the frat ever rape you incessantly?

Did your Greek council pass these actions down to your fraternity members to perform on its new members?

And yes, they ever beat and torture you to the point of your fucking death?:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/j.../tort-j02.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...6¬Found=true

There have been murders associated with these torture scandals, and a wide number of investigations are pending.

And these are only a handful of things that has been disclosed to the public. There are quite a few more pictures that haven't even been released yet.

___________________
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I yearn to shout,
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quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I had a number of close friends who were in frats in colleges...

Hey! It's not a 'frat'. You wouldn't call your country a...

With respect to your comments and how my pledging experience went:

quote:

Did the prisoners have a choice to put up with the tortures?

No, we really didn't, though you could always say a pledge can just quit if they are that disturbed, though that rarely happened.

quote:

Did they ever shove broom sticks up your asses?

No, but I've seen it happen outside of a fraternity environment. It was hard not to laugh.

quote:

Did they ever strip you naked and sick big ass dogs on you?

I think the elephant walk is worse

quote:

Did they ever electrocute your fucking balls? Did they ever threaten it?

Not this specific threat, but how about the threat of getting "skull-fucked"?

quote:

Did they ever beat the living shit out of you? I mean really, BEAT the living shit to the point of broken bones, failed organs, etc?

Actually, this shit happens all the time, and is pretty sickening when taken to extremes.

quote:

Did they ever force you to give another man a fucking blowjob? How about force you to fuck him?

Nah, but Russian situps are pretty nasty.

quote:

Did anyone in the frat ever rape you incessantly?

No, but this didn't happen at Abu Ghraib either--at least not the way you describe it. Clearly you're pretty riled up about the downplaying of this issue though!

quote:

Did your Greek council pass these actions down to your fraternity members to perform on its new members?

Hazing is EXPLICITLY forbidden by the IFC and the university. I'd say this is the best place to draw a parallel comparison. Had the administrations(university or U.S.) known what was going on, they would've likely revoked our charter and reported us to nationals. That's why this stuff happens secretly at lower ranks. And when these activities are discovered, the shit always hits the fan. I was in charge of risk management at my fraternity, and while I was in office, I never heard about hazing incidents because I was the LAST person in the fraternity that anyone would want to find out about stuff if we were to keep our noses clean.

quote:

And yes, they ever beat and torture you to the point of your fucking death?

Unfortunately, many university students have died as a result of fraternity hazing.



I know you're pretty pissed off about this, Opus, and I'm just trying to get under your skin a little. Obviously the context of the prisoner abuses are much different from those of universitites--the prisoners were never going to gain admission into any club or society following the actions taken against them. It's just funny to me that 7 months after these events took place people are still howling over it like it's fresh meat while the violent and much more horrific beheadings of Nick Berg and Paul Johnson etc. are all but forgotten.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I know you're pretty pissed off about this, Opus, and I'm just trying to get under your skin a little. Obviously the context of the prisoner abuses are much different from those of universitites--the prisoners were never going to gain admission into any club or society following the actions taken against them. It's just funny to me that 7 months after these events took place people are still howling over it like it's fresh meat while the violent and much more horrific beheadings of Nick Berg and Paul Johnson etc. are all but forgotten.

Ahh, your mama!

For the most part, no, I'm not that pissed off at all, at least no more than any other guy on the right, left, or middle. It's just those extremist views that tried to downplay this issue like Limbaugh that I just can never understand.

As for the Berg and Johnson beheadings, I'd say that they are receiving just about the same amount of playing time as the prison torture scandals right now - very little. But thankfully it also appears the new Iraqi government is taking a stance on these terrorist groups and al-Zarqawi.


Edit: BTW, don't think I have anything against frat guys - like I said, some are still my closest friends. And some of the best parties in college were at the frat houses.

At least from what I can remember.....

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Last edited by MisterOpus1 on Jul-14-2004 at 19:52

quote:

Originally posted by ResonantDrag (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

What, sort of like putting people in cages?

Oh, wait.

WTF, LET'S KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE HERE

PEOPLE ARE MAD ABOUT DEGRADATION?? REMEMBER THESE TERRORISTS SAWED A MAN'S FUCKING HEAD OFF ON VIDEO. NOT A SOLDIER, OR A TERRORIST, BUT SOME CIVILIAN GUY. i so am tired of everyone bitching about how hard the terrorists have it in prison. that the friends of soldiers killed by these people arent being very kind to them, and that even though members of the same terrorist organization flew planes into buildings and killed thousands, we aren't giving them much humane treatment, or the respect they deserve.

keep things in perspective.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by nic01445 Women aren't "evil" because "evil" is a human trait. Women really aren't a whole lot more than appliances. Every reaction is totally formulaic. Every nag, every whine, every complaint is totally forseeable once you begin to recognize their totally insane and irrational rythm.

let's keep things out of your perspective...

these were not the terrorists that flew planes into buildings, or sawed heads off. these were military regulars doing their enlisted duties and were captured. besides, whether these captives were some group of savages, isn't it the united states' responsibility to maintain the message that we are in Iraq as liberators? regardless of what they deserve?

goddamn.

Well, I just read an article in Rolling Stone Magazine, of all places, regarding the prisoner abuse and thought I'd resurrect this thread somewhat.

Apparently they've gotten hold of the classified documents detailing the abuses outlined by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba in his report on Abu Ghraib and it feauters some 6,000 pages of internal Army memos and e-mails, reports on prison riots and escapes, and sworn statements by soldiers, officers, private contractors and detainees.

You can read the complete Rolling Stone report on these documents here


Here are some excerpts:

quote:

In one sworn statement, Kasim Mehaddi Hilas, detainee number 151108, said he witnessed a translator referred to only as Abu Hamid raping a teenage boy. "I saw Abu Hamid, who was wearing the military uniform, putting his dick in the little kid's ass," Hilas testified. "The kid was hurting very bad." A female soldier took pictures of the rape, Hilas said.

quote:

During the Muslim holy period of Ramadan, Hilas saw Spc. Charles Graner Jr. and an unnamed "helper" tie a detainee to a bed around midnight. "They . . . inserted the phosphoric light in his ass, and he was yelling for God's help," the prisoner testified. Again, the same female soldier photographed the torture.

quote:

Another prisoner, Abd Alwhab Youss, was punished after guards accused him of plotting to attack an MP with a broken toothbrush. Guards took Youss into a closed room, poured cold water on him, pushed his head into urine and beat him with a broom. Then the guards "pressed my ass with a broom and spit on it," Youss said.

quote:

The files make clear that responsibility for what Taguba called "sadistic, blatant and wanton" abuses extends to several high-ranking officers still serving in command positions. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who is now in charge of all military prisons in Iraq, was dispatched to Abu Ghraib by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld last August. In a report marked secret, Miller recommended that military police at the prison be "actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees." After his plan was adopted, guards began depriving prisoners of sleep and food, subjecting them to painful "stress positions" and terrorizing them with dogs. A former Army intelligence officer tells Rolling Stone that the intent of Miller's report was clear to everyone involved: "It means treat the detainees like shit until they will sell their mother for a blanket, some food without bugs in it and some sleep."

How long can keep claiming this was a couple of "isolated incidents" caused by some "rotten apples"?

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the democratic national convention is taking the spotlight now.
which would u rather hear about? a convention where everyone is rallying to gather votes, or about handful of people getting tortured?

quote:

Originally posted by policerobots the democratic national convention is taking the spotlight now. which would u rather hear about? a convention where everyone is rallying to gather votes, or about handful of people getting tortured?

Eh? Well..why not both? Don't see why one should exclude the other. There is a possiblilty that more than one issue of political significance are happening at the same time so why not hear about all of them?

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quote:

Originally posted by dcential WTF, LET'S KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE HERE PEOPLE ARE MAD ABOUT DEGRADATION?? REMEMBER THESE TERRORISTS SAWED A MAN'S FUCKING HEAD OFF ON VIDEO. NOT A SOLDIER, OR A TERRORIST, BUT SOME CIVILIAN GUY. i so am tired of everyone bitching about how hard the terrorists have it in prison. that the friends of soldiers killed by these people arent being very kind to them, and that even though members of the same terrorist organization flew planes into buildings and killed thousands, we aren't giving them much humane treatment, or the respect they deserve. keep things in perspective.

In addition to ResonantDrag's comments, let's keep it into perspective that the majority of individuals that were tortured here were innocent Iraqi citizens who held no worthwhile information and were consequently freed, esp. after the scandal broke.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...