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Originally posted by MezzicanTrancEr Just to clarify - Christians are not the only group opposed to abortion. Also, I don't believe you can compare religious freedom with the right to abort an unborn child. How exactly does that go together? Anyone can choose freely to do just about anything - but that doesn't mean it's right. Side note: i hate the verbosity in some of these posts...

I think relating religious freedom to aborting an unborn child is relevant. Anti-abortion persons usually believe that terminating a human life is wrong, based on Biblical or sociological beliefs. Thou shalt not kill...

While I agree, personally, that you shouldn't kill an unborn child - I am Pro-Choice because I have to respect others views on the subject, that they may not embrace the same moral baseline that I have (the Bible).

I look at abortion the same way as capital punishment - I do not agree with it (I think no human has the right to take another's life, except in self defense) - except under severe circumstances. These are two examples of where murder is socially acceptable in our society.

If you have ever been to one of these clinics where the abortions are being performed, you will quickly see that no woman in there is wanting to kill the babies growing inside of them. These places are quite possibly one of the most depressing places one could go, you can just feel the sadness radiating off the the poor(as in feeling sorry for) people that need their services. Most of these people who get pregnant and choose to abort only do so because their lives would be ruined if the baby got delivered.

If hyperconservatives and overreligous people wouldn't scorn these mothers so much, then maybe they wouldn't feel the need to kill their babies so often.

What really angers me about the world is that people can be so cruel to each other that mothers would rather kill their children then face the unfair consequences that our society brings to them if they let their baby live.

A woman who has just aborted her child is one of the saddest things one can ever see, and I wouldn't wish it to happen even to my worst enemy.

IMHO we shouldnt be fighing over weather abortion is right, we should be fighting over weather the things we do to these mothers when we find out that they are pregnant are right.

Until the world is more fair to people who get pregnant, abortion is sadly needed.

The real problem is the nutjobs that think killing abortion doctors is God given and right. THey keep forgetting thou shall not kill but the problem with this issue is that it has become so violent on some sides. I personally think Abortion is wrong and I'll stand by that decision.

I think everyone thinks abortion is wrong, the question is to what degree do they think it is wrong, and weather intervention is neccesary to stop it.

Nobody is happy with killing their offspring in this way, unless they are fucked up somehow

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Originally posted by Seventil I think relating religious freedom to aborting an unborn child is relevant. Anti-abortion persons usually believe that terminating a human life is wrong, based on Biblical or sociological beliefs. Thou shalt not kill... While I agree, personally, that you shouldn't kill an unborn child - I am Pro-Choice because I have to respect others views on the subject, that they may not embrace the same moral baseline that I have (the Bible). I look at abortion the same way as capital punishment - I do not agree with it (I think no human has the right to take another's life, except in self defense) - except under severe circumstances. These are two examples of where murder is socially acceptable in our society.

Ethics and morals are not invented by the bible. Religious scriptures merely formalize already existing sociological relations and transform them into dogmatic commands. The question here is not whether we should consider murder acceptable, but whether abortion should be considered a murder. The logic behind your statement is such that it could be easily used to allow murder of adult people because, oh well, you shouldn't interfere into murderer's own religious and moral values. There is a limit at which individual's personal beliefs should be dictated by the rest of the society, and that limit is when the individual in question is directly harming another member of the society. What is disputable is whether unborn children who are potential members of the society should be given at least some rights which are given to already existant members.


UnWorldly, you talk about pregnancy as if it was some sort of a disease which you can't choose whether to get or not. Well, birth control is quite simple and not that hard to carry out. If a woman doesn't want to have children, that's her own business, but getting pregnant and then aborting shows a great lack of foresightedness, morals, honor, and dignity. Not all aborted kids would grow up in horrible environment, not all would ruin their parent's lives. Sure, having kids is definitely a long term duty and you can say goodbye to partying for the first few years at least, but there are billions of people who have kids and who somehow do manage to live good lives regardless that they don't have nearly as much free time as they used to have. C'est la vie, and you should stand behind your unthoughtful actions instead of taking the easy way out and getting rid of that little parasite inside of you that you didn't want there.

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Have you ever been to one of these clinics? I guarantee that nobody in that room hasn't thought about what they were doing millions of times before going inside.

I don't think getting pregnant is a disease that we can't stop, your putting words into my mouth that I didn't even remotely say. I agree with you that abortion shows lack of honor and foresight, and that there are people who abort children even though they could possibly grow up in a nice environment without ruining their parent's lives.

But if you actualy go to one of these clinics(at least in my region, they won't even let you in unless you have a reason to be there though) you will see that people aren't killing their babies because they want to still be able to go party and don't want to sacrifice their free time, by choosing this "easy way out". I agree with you that it is a bullshit reason to kill somebody.

The real reason the people here are killing their kids(at least over here) is because they simply can't bear to face what will happen to them if they try and keep them. They all want to let their children live, they are all willing to make the sacrifices in their social lives and their walets. Over here, they are all(mostly) willing to stand behind their unthoughtful actions, but the reason they choose to abort is because of the unthoughtful actions of others.

Abortion came to be because of a problem that society created, that problem is the way people who get pregnant are treated.

Why can't an unmarried woman who gets pregnant just have their baby in peace? Why do they have to face so much hate, why do they get booted from their homes when it happens, why must they get expelled from their religions and schools and jobs when it happens? why does every person who doesnt believe in premarital sex have to come up to them and scorn them? why can't we just accept that the pregnant woman had a different opinion about sex and just let them have their kid without punishing them for it so much?

Why is society hateful towards unmarried mothers instead of supportive?

I think if we fixed the problem that our society created the right way, people wouldn't be aborting their babies anymore.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Ethics and morals are not invented by the bible. Religious scriptures merely formalize already existing sociological relations and transform them into dogmatic commands. The question here is not whether we should consider murder acceptable, but whether abortion should be considered a murder. The logic behind your statement is such that it could be easily used to allow murder of adult people because, oh well, you shouldn't interfere into murderer's own religious and moral values. There is a limit at which individual's personal beliefs should be dictated by the rest of the society, and that limit is when the individual in question is directly harming another member of the society. What is disputable is whether unborn children who are potential members of the society should be given at least some rights which are given to already existant members.

Murder is acceptable by today's society in two ways - capital punishment and abortion. I agree the "is abortion murder" topic is a good one, and one that I'm not 100% set on - it's a grey area.

While I see how you could contrue my statements like that, I believe it was taken out of context. Although I am Christian, and I believe in murder, and I respect another's right to believe in another religion - when said religion begins to affect the harmony and disrupts the peace (like a cult of mass murdering maniacs would) - you have to draw the line.

Abortion, currently, does not fall under that category. While I myself feel it is wrong, I have to respect others rights to not believe in what I believe.

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 Have you ever been to one of these clinics? I guarantee that nobody in that room hasn't thought about what they were doing millions of times before going inside.

Yes, but after they had irresponsible sex. Look, I am not saying that those women there are thriving in happiness, they're most certainly fucked up completely, but they should have thought about it earlier. It's like me getting in a car drunk and driving over a person who was passing by, and then start worrying about what I may have done. Sometimes people come to their senses too late, and well, too bad for them, but their mistakes were nevertheless not justified and we should not feel too much empathy for them.

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I don't think getting pregnant is a disease that we can't stop, your putting words into my mouth that I didn't even remotely say. I agree with you that abortion shows lack of honor and foresight, and that there are people who abort children even though they could possibly grow up in a nice environment without ruining their parent's lives.

I merely said that to emphasise my point of view that there is always a point where a person can choose to avoid pregnancy, and that point is right before sexual intercourse.

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But if you actualy go to one of these clinics(at least in my region, they won't even let you in unless you have a reason to be there though) you will see that people aren't killing their babies because they want to still be able to go party and don't want to sacrifice their free time, by choosing this "easy way out". I agree with you that it is a bullshit reason to kill somebody.

Yet there are women who have had several abortions behind them, many of them strictly because of their commodities. Some people say that they don't want to introduce their children into this world when they're in bad financial situation, but I think it's an exaggeration on their part. It is normal that we all want what is best for us and for our children, but we should consider the fact that there are literally billions of children living in far worse situations than any of those born in Europe or America would ever be in. We can't all have children in perfect homes and perfect families. If only people with perfect conditions would have children, worldwide birthrates would drop to about 0.0001 child born per woman. I can take my own mom for example in this case. She got pregnant before she had me, she was not that well off at the time, but she certainly wasn't living in poverty, and she had an abortion. Why? A mixture of commodity and a feeling that she could provide better conditions for a child if she had it later on in life. Basically an overreaction not justified by any logic.

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The real reason the people here are killing their kids(at least over here) is because they simply can't bear to face what will happen to them if they try and keep them. They all want to let their children live, they are all willing to make the sacrifices in their social lives and their walets. Over here, they are all(mostly) willing to stand behind their unthoughtful actions, but the reason they choose to abort is because of the unthoughtful actions of others.

What actions of others?

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Abortion came to be because of a problem that society created, that problem is the way people who get pregnant are treated. Why can't an unmarried woman who gets pregnant just have their baby in peace? Why do they have to face so much hate, why do they get booted from their homes when it happens, why must they get expelled from their religions and schools and jobs when it happens? why does every person who doesnt believe in premarital sex have to come up to them and scorn them? why can't we just accept that the pregnant woman had a different opinion about sex and just let them have their kid without punishing them for it so much? Why is society hateful towards unmarried mothers instead of supportive? I think if we fixed the problem that our society created the right way, people wouldn't be aborting their babies anymore.

I do agree with you on this part. The society is not very interested in helping young mothers, it is mostly strong on words. Such a thing should definitely be changed, and I believe that child bearing subsidies should be greatly increased.

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Most of the world is anti abortion but does little to provide help to mothers who are pregnant or even some answers to these people. I rather have these people let the child be adopted because I feel it is not for us to decide if the child should live or die. You create a human with another person, you get pregnant, you should carry the child to full term and then either raise it or let people adopt. There are many couples that can't have kids and want to adopt a child to raise and love.