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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Well fine, I would agree that Kerry's statements might have an impact. But hey even though the truth may hurt, you're still better off knowing the truth than living in a lie that's only going to hurt more in the long run.


At this point of the game its not a truth, its an opinion.

Its as if team USA and team Iraq were on the basketball court and at the end of the first quarter Iraq was up 10 points. Kerry is saying Iraq is winning, there is no way in hell that team USA can win, its a catastrophe, might as well stop playing now before you get humilitated further.
While Bush is saying its just the first quarter, Iraq has a good team, nobody thought this game would be easy. Give it sometime, have confidence in our players. Team USA is better, they'll win.

...

Now if you were a player on Team USA, who would you prefer as a coach?


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Old Post Sep-24-2004 22:38  Israel
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
At this point of the game its not a truth, its an opinion.

Its as if team USA and team Iraq were on the basketball court and at the end of the first quarter Iraq was up 10 points. Kerry is saying Iraq is winning, there is no way in hell that team USA can win, its a catastrophe, might as well stop playing now before you get humilitated further.
While Bush is saying its just the first quarter, Iraq has a good team, nobody thought this game would be easy. Give it sometime, have confidence in our players. Team USA is better, they'll win.

...

Now if you were a player on Team USA, who would you prefer as a coach?


Except the thing that's missing in your analogy is that while you are trying to finish your game, the other side is recruiting an ever increasing player population.

Many of their new recruits have seen their friends and family members blown to pieces during the game and are very willing to die in order to defeat you in the next round. Also remember that when they sacrifice themselves to take out as many of us as possible, they are immediately sent to their heaven (with virgins awaiting them, nonetheless.)

Old Post Sep-25-2004 00:35  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

I would want the coach that doesn't follow the Neo-con war agenda.

Old Post Sep-25-2004 00:36  United States
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
Except the thing that's missing in your analogy is that while you are trying to finish your game, the other side is recruiting an ever increasing player population.

Many of their new recruits have seen their friends and family members blown to pieces during the game and are very willing to die in order to defeat you in the next round.


This isn't a fact. Its your opinion on whats happening. There is no objective way at present time to confirm or deny your opinion.
If I were to amend the analogy it would fit in the coach's perspectives:

i.e.
Kerry: We should stop playing before they recruit more players. They will getg more and more on the court, and they won't obey the rules. We should quit before we might start winning which will make them more determined to play harder and get their rested players up from the bench.

Bush: Lets win, whatever it takes.


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Last edited by Yoepus on Sep-25-2004 at 17:32

Old Post Sep-25-2004 00:57  Israel
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

Iraq: Fourth Generation Warfare (4GW) Swamp

G. I. Wilson

March 10, 2004



Iraq is fast becoming a fourth generation warfare swamp. The attacks on Shiite shrines in Baghdad and Karbala, killing and wounding hundreds, portends more of the same. These coordinated attacks signal a change in the very nature of the insurgency itself. Iraqi terrorists (both foreign fighters and indigenous) are waging symbolic and ideological warfare against the U.S., Coalition Forces, and segments of the Iraqi people.

These terrorists remain elusive and often effective in their attacks. Improvised explosive devises and suicide bombers take their toll on both Iraqis and U.S. troops. Determining with specificity what factions are precipitating this violence is no easy task.

Paul Bremer, U.S. administrator of Iraq, believes the violence aimed at Iraqis comes from foreign threats outside the country of Iraq. Gen. John Abizaid told the Senate Armed Services Committee that foreign operatives continue to infiltrate across the Syrian and Iranian borders. The coordination among foreign interlopers, indigenous opportunists, Islamic extremists, and remnants of the Saddam regime is quite remarkable.

Remarkable in the sense the insurgents have both secular and religious components. The secular group has its origin in remnants of the Ba'athist loyalists. The religious group ties are with the foreign jihadists who came to Iraq to fight the great Satan—United States. These foreign interlopers or jihadists are most likely the trainers of terrorist cells and suicide bombers inside Iraq.

Iraq’s fourth generation foes appear at times to be everywhere in the region connected not only by family, clan, and ethnic ties but the Internet as well. This 4GW foe has no desire to make peace but rather is attempting to increase casualties as fast as possible during this next troop rotation. This 4GW adversary transcends borders and the nation-state paradigm. While Saddam Hussein loyalists press to destabilization Iraq, an irregular network of foreign and local terrorists in association Islamic extremists are creating internal strife and conflict.

All conflict in Iraq for U.S. forces and the Iraqis is now local. We must prepare and be willing to encounter these 4GW adversaries in all their shapes and guises. The situation is growing more complex resulting in a pugilistic witch's brew and hurly burly stew in the offing. For example, it has been reported in the open press that Hamas has an office in Nasariah, and Hezbollah has offices in Basra and Safwan. The political wings of both Hamas and Hezbollah are recruiting Iraqi youth with seminars that embrace their ideology and terrorist nature.

Terrorists' tactics and the nature of the insurgency are changing. This is characteristic of fourth generation warfare. One striking aspect of these fourth generation terrorist groups is their ability to adapt, transform and reappear. We must not lose sight of the fact that our fourth generation adversaries are constantly adapting changing as Islamic terror networks fan out seeking fertile new ground to foment discontent in places with weak authorities, lack of Iraqi security forces, shifting alliances, and endemic corruption associated with criminal enterprises.

We are beginning to see more attacks in Iraq focusing on the emerging Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi people themselves. The number of attacks on U.S. forces appears to be declining somewhat indicating that insurgent forces are focusing less on U.S. troops but rather on Iraqis who support the coalition forces, or people working for the new government. The situation remains problematic.

Foreign fighters are continuing to infiltrate across the Syrian and Iranian borders. Part of the threat is being attributed to extremists. Nevertheless, expect collaboration among Iraqi extremists, foreign terrorists, and Saddam loyalists (remnants of the regime’s intelligence service and Fedayeen). The desire to create internal turmoil cannot be overlooked.

For example, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is carrying on a fourth generation campaign inside Iraq, as described in a letter purportedly written by al-Zarqawi and intercepted by U.S. intelligence. The letter outlined plans to attack Shiite religious sites to foment a civil war.

The fourth generation foe in the Iraqi region is more likely to be known by his ideology than by his national origin or geographic connection as defined by nation-states. He is defined by his affinity for destructive ideologies or intentions. To this enemy, structures emblematic of globalizing influence become high-value targets. As the anti-occupation threat diminishes, other dangerous fourth generation groups lurk in the swamp.

There are ambiguous assortments of terrorist and fundamentalist groups whose organization; reach, network structure, and origins are difficult to define. The fundamentalists include followers of the Wahabbi sect of Islam, mujahedeen forces committed to a holy war against the West; and imams who preach anti-Western messages in Iraqi mosques. These groups mixed with foreign terrorists such as al-Qa'ida and Ansar al-Islam, and Iraqi Kurds compose a very dangerous enemy, which threatens the stability of Iraq.

This enemy cannot be overcome by simply killing them. Their deaths mean martyrdom. Where they fall, dozens or hundreds spring up to take their places. They cannot be overcome solely through firepower attrition, because all death caused by the West accrue to this enemy's benefit, proving their thesis that annihilation is still King in all struggles for power. Waging conflict with massive firepower and high technology are the hallmark of the great Satan to them.

As in all conflict the aftermath is not pretty and we need to recognize with Iraq that "the baby is ugly". We have violated General Zinni's twenty principles* of humanitarian operations. However, we still have a window of opportunity to make a dramatic difference if we work hard at creating Iraqi jobs, get Iraqi security forces firmly in place, establish venues for free press, provide extensive internet and media access to the Iraqi people, enhance the infrastructure, and control the borders of Iraq.

If the United States plans on Iraq to be the keystone in the region, then it needs well-controlled and monitored borders. Once Iraq’s borders are secure, Iraq can serve as the balancing centerpiece for the region. Controlling the borders of Iraq will be demanding but represents another way point necessary for exiting Iraq. Securing the borders will focus attention on such countries as Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iran. No doubt Saudi Arabia will find itself in an uncomfortable position but one the U.S. cannot ignore either.

The next 13 months will determine the path Iraq will ultimately pursue. The volatile concoction of resistive Kurds in the north, assertive Shiites in the south and embittered Sunni Muslims in between, exacerbated by the presence of foreign interlopers, has all the potential for an internal explosion. Hopefully terrorist and fundamentalist factions will not turn Iraq into a fourth generation warfare swamp.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://vader.mindtel.com/strongangel/Documents/ Go to the bottom of that page and click on the link "Zinni's Twenty Rules." It's a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet (15K)

© 2004 G.I. Wilson. All opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily reflect those of Military.com.

G.I. Wilson is a retired a Marine Corps Reserve Colonel with over 30 years of military service and 7 years combined civilian law enforcement and emergency services experience. He is widely published in military journals and has appeared in TV documentaries on warfare. He consults for ABC-7 Los Angles, Knowledge and Intelligence Program Professionals (KIPP) , M2 Technologies, Employer Support of the Guard & Reserve (ESGR) , Emergency Response Research Institute (ERRI) , and is President of the Board of Directors for Bossov Ballet Theatre.

Col GI Wilson, USMCR, was a co-author of the original paper on fourth generation warfare.




>>>Source<<<





http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C82790%2C00.html

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/9593310.htm


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0...1044612,00.html


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...004Jun27_3.html

Last edited by Trancer-X on Sep-25-2004 at 01:25

Old Post Sep-25-2004 01:16  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5351



Bush: Reckless Endangerment

Old Post Sep-25-2004 01:21  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

BTW - Sorry for the threadjack, NYTrancefan!

Old Post Sep-25-2004 01:28  United States
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BadBadNeil
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: CT, USA!

So the Iraqi insurgents who are setting off carbombs and other explosive devices in the city, killing more innocent iraqis than Americans have in the entire war, are they seen as martyrs as well? Is their cause just?


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Old Post Sep-25-2004 01:42  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by BadBadNeil
Is their cause just?


They seem to think so

Old Post Sep-25-2004 01:46  United States
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

i guess that shit has to be stopped then

Old Post Sep-25-2004 03:12  United States
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Now if you were a player on Team USA, who would you prefer as a coach?


Well, if I wanted to win I'd have to go with the one who can come up with a better game plan than the person whose poor plan has us losing to a not-as-good-as-advertised Iraqi team.

Old Post Sep-25-2004 03:20 
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imokruok
Lawyers, guns, and money



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA / Milwaukee, WI

Here's an article that's right on point.

quote:

Investors Business Daily
Monday, September 27, 2004
http://www.investors.com/editorial/issues.asp?v=9/22

Insulting A Friend

Politics: Sen. John Kerry and his crew have proved Sen. Zell Miller right. They really will say anything to get elected, even if that means undermining a courageous ally and greasing the skids to defeat in Iraq.

It was the renegade Democrat Miller who roused the 2004 Republican convention and raised the ire of the taste police with lines like these:

"Now, while young Americans are dying in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Democrats' manic obsession to bring down our commander in chief."

Strong stuff. At the time, even some on the GOP side suggested that Miller had gone too far. But after the events of the past week, we're wondering if he might not have gone far enough.

That "manic obsession" described by Miller has so consumed Kerry and his campaign aides that they don't seem to care how much harm they do to the national interest or to America's allies.

One of those allies, maybe the most important one at this point, is Iraq's interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. Allawi is a true hero, a man who has stepped forward for the hazardous mission of forming an effective Iraqi government and shepherding the nation toward democracy. Terrorists have marked him for death. Even critics of President Bush's policies owe Allawi some respect.

They owe him support as well. If he fails, Iraq would slide closer to chaos, and the danger to U.S. troops and civilians would rise accordingly. Whether the goal is to win or just get out unscathed, it would be harder to achieve.

So how did the Democratic presidential nominee show his respect and support for Allawi? By snubbing his Thursday speech to Congress (along with a number of other Democrats) and, as soon as it ended, calling him little better than a liar and a lap dog.

It was an insult as ignoble as Kerry's description of the coalition allies as "the bribed, the coerced, the bought and the extorted."

In his speech, Allawi said the situation in Iraq is less chaotic than news reports make it seem, and the country should be able to hold national elections as scheduled in January. Kerry, who has pegged his campaign on persuading the American people that the Iraq war is an unwinnable fiasco, couldn't let such optimism go unchallenged, even when it came from a man who actually lives in Iraq.

So he suggested, not so subtly, that Allawi was bending the truth just to give Bush a boost.

"The prime minister and the president are here obviously to put their best face on the (Iraq) policy," he said, "but the fact is that the CIA estimates, reporting, the ground operations and the troops all tell a different story."

That was "relatively restrained," as Los Angeles Times' Ron Brownstein noted, in comparison to what some Kerry aides were suggesting. Brownstein quoted one of them, senior adviser Joe Lockhart, as saying of the courageous Allawi: "The last thing you want to be seen as is a puppet of the United States, and you can almost see the hand underneath the shirt today moving the lips."

What might Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and our other enemies make of such comments? Kerry and Lockhart have played into their hands. To the extent that the Kerry campaign's view of Allawi gets around in Iraq, it will weaken the prime minister's government. It's never helpful to a leader to be seen as anyone's puppet, yet here's Kerry and his crew calling Allawi just that.

Are we saying that the Kerry campaign is deliberately seeking to undermine Allawi, destabilize Iraq, embolden terrorists and bring about a U.S. defeat?

No. But Kerry's insulting treatment of a key ally shows him to be irresponsible, graceless and obsessively bent on winning office at all costs. Three little words come to mind: unfit to serve.


___________________
FLUSHED THE JOHNS!

Old Post Sep-25-2004 03:50  United States
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