quote:

Originally posted by Shamez214 I would definitely not consider him the top player in baseball. Heck, I wouldn't consider him among the top players in baseball. He'd a great player, yes. An amazing player. But he is no where near the Manny Ramirez', Vladimir Guerrero's, Albert Pujols', and Todd Helton's of the world. I didn't even mention Barry Bonds because even those 4 guys don't come close to Barry. As for the Japan stats of Ichiro... I really don't consider the two leagues equal. If they were, than Tuffy Rhodes would not be one of the best players in Japan. Hideki Matsui would be belting 50+ homers over hear and Kaz Matsui would be batting .300 with 25+ home runs. The leagues aren't equal, so I don't know if the HoF peeps will take that into consideration. So he'll have to keep this up for a few more years before being considered a 'sure-thing' hall of famer. He definitely could do it though, in my eyes.

So his Glove doesn't set him apart? His field performance is astounding. That man can gun the ball straight to home plate from right field w.o a bounce. That sets him apart as impressive in it's own right. He went something around 56 games in a row without striking out. But no, Barry Bonds does that all the time right?

Fuck the home run. A sound hitting team and defensive team will outprform a team that relys on the home run to get points on the board. The singles, doubles and good base running will get you the points consistantly, while homeruns are few and hard to come by. At least they used to be.

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Maynard James Keenan:
Like hearing my grandmother, talk to her dog that way -- "Ooo
-- puppy!" and I said I'd never do that, ever! And now I have two
dogs and I talk like an imbecile! I wander around, "Ooo! You want
food!" I've turned into a f*cking moron.

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Originally posted by getfoul So his Glove doesn't set him apart? His field performance is astounding. That man can gun the ball straight to home plate from right field w.o a bounce. That sets him apart as impressive in it's own right. He went something around 56 games in a row without striking out. But no, Barry Bonds does that all the time right? Fuck the home run. A sound hitting team and defensive team will outprform a team that relys on the home run to get points on the board. The singles, doubles and good base running will get you the points consistantly, while homeruns are few and hard to come by. At least they used to be.

No one in the game of baseball today compares to Barry Bonds. He is the best right now and, possibly, of all time. Comparing anyone in MLB today is pointless. Of course good baserunning and defense is part of the equation of a winning team. And that's why there are 8 (EIGHT) guys out there. Barry Bonds doesn't need to be an amazing defensive Left Fielder (and at age 40, would you expect him to be? also, he WAS one of the best Left Fielders in baseball in his younger days) because you have Marquis Grissom in CF. Not every player has to be amazing both offensively and defensively. If there were a fantasy draft today and you had to pick between Ichiro or Bonds, who would you pick? Let's make it so that it's a one season deal, so no saying you'd pick Ichiro cause he's younger.

Also, a sound hitting team will outperform a team that relies on the homerun? Ummm... say hello to the Yankees and Redsox. Last time I checked, they were both homerun hitting ball clubs and are probably the two best teams in the Major Leagues.

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*can't imagine it feelin' much better...
i wish it would just last forever.
and so, to feel like that?
i'd pay any price just to get that back.*

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Originally posted by Nou I dont count power hitters as being the top, look at SF, they didnt make it to the play offs... not saying that determines a teams ability, but you would think that someone that can score that many runs on their power would push their team into the play offs. Ichiro is the best atm for his over all performance at bat and on the field, he is on top of his game in each of those parts, and to be on top of it for 4 years now, thats saying something.

You really can't be serious.

Bonds OPS = 1.400+
Ichiro OPS = .800+

Bonds is almost doubling the offensive output of Ichiro. And... last time I checked, Barry Bonds was batting only .365. What makes Ichiro so much better? The fact that he's only batting 7 or 8 points higher than Barry Bonds. Ichiro doesn't even compare to Albert Pujols or Todd Helton or Manny Ramirez... and you're comparing him to Barry Bonds? When was the last time you've watched Barry Bonds? Wow... Barry Bonds had the single greatest season in baseball history this year. No one has ever done what he has done this year and nobody even realizes it. Check it out when you get a chance... No one has ever been on base over 60% of the time. Guess what? Bonds was. Bonds is still belting homers every 6 at bats. He had more homeruns than he's struck out. He has an absurd strikeout to walk ratio. He, last time I checked which was a month or two ago, almost has more extra base hits than he has SWUNG AND MISSED AT A PITCH. That is incredible. Barry Bonds is the best hitter in baseball. And no one, not even your Ichiro comes close to comparing. Even if Ichiro was the greatest defensive RF in baseball histroy, he would still not be more valuable to his team than Bonds is. Stick Bonds on the Mariners and Ichiro on the Giants and I bet the standings in the AL and NL West would be completely different.

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*can't imagine it feelin' much better...
i wish it would just last forever.
and so, to feel like that?
i'd pay any price just to get that back.*

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Originally posted by Nou I dont contest that Bonds had an awesome season this year but, Im saying Ichiro is the better compared to Bonds or those others, on all their stats over the last four years, and thats something comparing a veteran in Bonds, to a relative rookie in Ichiro. But thats just what I think.

I'm sorry, but no one can even remotely compare to Bonds since 2000. Can you even imagine the impact he would have if he had someone even half decent behind him so they would have to pitch to him? He produces MVP numbers with maybe one good pitch to hit each game. Everything else is outside of the zone. Ramirez puts up comparable numbers, but he has another MVP candidate behind him.

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Originally posted by Omegasox I'm sorry, but no one can even remotely compare to Bonds since 2000. Can you even imagine the impact he would have if he had someone even half decent behind him so they would have to pitch to him? He produces MVP numbers with maybe one good pitch to hit each game. Everything else is outside of the zone. Ramirez puts up comparable numbers, but he has another MVP candidate behind him.

Exactly. Ichiro is great, do not get me wrong. I've loved him since he came into the league. He actually got me interested in Japanese baseball, and I check periodically to see who could be the next 'Ichiro' or 'Hideki' to come over.

But Bonds... Bonds has been incredible. Even before his "breakout" season in 2001, he was probably one of the best players in baseball history. He's never struck out more than 100 times, and for a power hitter, that is amazing. He was always a great defensive LF, and if I'm not mistaken he has one a gold glove.

Like Omega said, since 2000, no one can compare to Bonds. He has likely had the greatest 5 years in the history of baseball. Ichiro has been great since coming into the league, but no where near Bonds.

Okay, I was a geek and I took the time out to compare stats. One is Ichiro from age 27, 2001, till age 30, 2004. The other is Barry Bonds. Not Barry Bonds from 2001 till 2004, but from 1991 till 1994, when Barry Bonds was age 27 - 30. Who is the better player?



I believe it would be the 27 - 30 year old Bonds. So to compare Ichiro to the now God-like Bonds is just absurd. Also, just a side note about those stats, 1994 was the year of the strike, so it was cut short. Many people have said that, had the year finished, Bonds could possibly have hit 61 HRs that year. The month before the strike, Bonds had gotten mega-hot, so it could have happened... just a note.

___________________
*can't imagine it feelin' much better...
i wish it would just last forever.
and so, to feel like that?
i'd pay any price just to get that back.*

quote:

Originally posted by Shamez214 ... He was always a great defensive LF, and if I'm not mistaken he has one a gold glove. ...

More like eight Gold Gloves!!!

But nonetheless, Ichiro is a great player!

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Originally posted by Disney More like eight Gold Gloves!!! But nonetheless, Ichiro is a great player!

Well, there ya go. And for Barry to win 8 GG's over the CFs and RFs in he league at the time, that's gotta say something.

___________________
*can't imagine it feelin' much better...
i wish it would just last forever.
and so, to feel like that?
i'd pay any price just to get that back.*

quote:

Originally posted by Shamez214 Well, there ya go. And for Barry to win 8 GG's over the CFs and RFs in he league at the time, that's gotta say something.

Yep, but he'll not be remembered much for his defensive qualities

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Originally posted by Nou Doubt it, one person does not make the team, Bonds would have had the same sort of season, which is great, Im not arguing, but you look at how the rest of the M's did and our pitching sucked (remember, its all good when your scoring runs, but if your starters and bullpen cant keep the other team down its pointless). Then again, Bond hasnt faced a majority of the American League pitchers, same with Ichiro not having faced a majority, even less than Bonds knows in the AL, so that would be a factor. I dont contest that Bonds had an awesome season this year but, Im saying Ichiro is the better compared to Bonds or those others, on all their stats over the last four years, and thats something comparing a veteran in Bonds, to a relative rookie in Ichiro. But thats just what I think.

you're out of your fucking mind even comparing bonds to ichiro

you're saying that ichiro's stats over the past 4 years were better than bonds?

2001: Bonds: 73 Hr, 137 RBI, .328 BA, 510 OBP, .863 Slugging
2002: Bonds: 46 Hr, 110 RBI, .370 BA, 582 OBP, .799 Slugging
2003: Bonds: 45 HR, 90 RBI, .341 BA, 529 OBP, .749 Slugging
2004: Bonds: 45 HR, 101 RBI, .362 BA, 609 OBP, .812 Slugging

i'm not even going to put ichiro's numbers up because there is absolutely no point doing it, out of the past four years only two of those years, 2001 and 2004 did ichiro have great years...

there is no one in baseball even at bonds' level, no one in baseball is as feared as bonds nor does anyone in baseball change the entire game as much as baseball...do you even watch baseball? AND HE'S 40 YEARS OLD...ichiro's great as well with his ability to hit any pitch, his great arm and defense but he does not even come close to bonds...don't be an idiot

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Exactly. Even Bonds at the same age as Ichiro was way better than Ichiro. People tend to forget that Bonds was still a ridiculous player before he became Babe Ruth. It's not like Desi Relaford is all of a sudden belting a home run every 6 at-bats and having OBP of .500 +. Bonds was always great... but now he is immortal.

___________________
*can't imagine it feelin' much better...
i wish it would just last forever.
and so, to feel like that?
i'd pay any price just to get that back.*