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Originally posted by tecnolover God said it is sin to have homosexual relations- therefore, anything/everything related to homosexuality is wrong. Gay marriage, unions, bars, parties, movies, t.v. shows, websites, photos, audio...you get the point. It's as simple as that.

What if I dont believe in God? Perhaps I dont believe in anything at all... So why should the beliefs of christians be forced upon me?? (note that i'm not gay, and I am baptised.. I'm just putting up an argument)..

Last time I checked the US was a multicultural society (if not the most multicultural in the world).. so why should the religious views of some be forced on all??

seperation of state and church.. it's in your constitution i believe..

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Originally posted by tecnolover God said it is sin to have homosexual relations- therefore, anything/everything related to homosexuality is wrong. Gay marriage, unions, bars, parties, movies, t.v. shows, websites, photos, audio...you get the point. It's as simple as that.

one flaw though- in all rationality: there is no god.

You don't know. However, you can be pretty sure that, given there is a God, nobody knows his true intentions - including his views on homosexuals. And that's the reason why the "God don't like them"-argument is crap.

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Originally posted by razmataz one flaw though- in all rationality: there is no god.

Prove it.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Prove it.

Hence, why I said "all rationality". You have to be very "irrational" to believe in God.

To briefly touch on the subject though.

The belief in God depends so much on trust and blind faith that it becomes ridiculous. Religion is wholly based on the notion of "weak evidence". That is, unverifiable accounts of miracles and whatnot. "Strong evidence" on the other hand is such that anybody can verify it. The boiling point of water is 100 degrees celsius. I am inclined to believe that because I have tested it myself and so can you. But listening to miracles of centuries past is no different than ghost stories to me. Ironically, these miracles have dried up. If David Blaine existed thousands of years ago- he would have ruled the world I reckon.

Everthing that is "created" has a purpose meant for it by its creator. Man made spoons and forks to be able to eat, the car to drive, planes to fly etc etc. So if there really is a God I'd like to hear OUR purpose. I've been told that it is to worship God (suggesting that he has an ego problem) and some are just satisfied with the hope that God MUST have a purpose that He hasnt told us yet.

Anyways, I can go on about how empty the paradigm of religion is and how nothing in it makes logical sense but I couldn't care less what people believe in. Religion is good I suppose for people who have lost hope in this life as it gives them something to look forward to in the next one.

It becomes a sensitive matter though in issues like this one because it seems that the religious people believe they have some God-given right to impose their beliefs on others. "Gays can't marry because God said so". How stupid does that sound. If He felt so strongly about it, I'm sure He can come down and say so Himself.

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Originally posted by Dupz What if I dont believe in God? Perhaps I dont believe in anything at all... So why should the beliefs of christians be forced upon me?? (note that i'm not gay, and I am baptised.. I'm just putting up an argument).. Last time I checked the US was a multicultural society (if not the most multicultural in the world).. so why should the religious views of some be forced on all?? seperation of state and church.. it's in your constitution i believe..

Dupz, I was answering to this question...

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Originally posted by hardstyle Did god told you that gay marriage is wrong? I never seen anywhere that god said "Only man and woman can get married."

Religion should not be forced on anyone. It can't be, at least to be meaningful or true to that person. It's completely a personal thing. I completely believe in the freedom of religion and worship. The people of each state should get to decide if they will allow gay unions and what benefits that entails. Bush supports this and I think he is correct. It is good republican policy. If that state is predominantly strong christians then they will likely oppose gay unions. If you don't like that you can move to another state that does allow them. This is democracy. The majority vote rules.

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Originally posted by razmataz Hence, why I said "all rationality". You have to be very "irrational" to believe in God.

Then you are calling some of the greatest men on earth irrational? Jesus Christ who taught some of the most profound moral and ethical lesson in all the world, who is even accepted as a great teacher by Islam and many other religions on earth. Abraham-who is accepted as a great prophet not only by christians but by Islam and Judaism, Abraham lincoln and George Washington considered by many to be the two greatest presidents of the USA. You call them irrational, well then I guess we should all choose to be irrational. You just had to get me started again! I originally never came to this forum to discus religion, only to discredit Kerry! You aren't Arbiter's twin brother are you?! hehe

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To briefly touch on the subject though. The belief in God depends so much on trust and blind faith that it becomes ridiculous. Religion is wholly based on the notion of "weak evidence". That is, unverifiable accounts of miracles and whatnot. "Strong evidence" on the other hand is such that anybody can verify it. The boiling point of water is 100 degrees celsius. I am inclined to believe that because I have tested it myself and so can you. But listening to miracles of centuries past is no different than ghost stories to me. Ironically, these miracles have dried up. If David Blaine existed thousands of years ago- he would have ruled the world I reckon.

Anybody can verify it. Do you believe that God would only let His existance be known to a select few? God can and will prove it to you if really want to know. The evidence would be yours alone if you sought it. You said you are inclined to believe water boils at 100degrees because you tested it. Well don't you know that you can also test for the existance of God also? It is a testable thing. But you have to want to know if He exists first. Many don't want to truely know. Heck, I didn't want to know at one time. there will come a time in each mans life when he will be ready and willing to know the truth including yours.

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Everthing that is "created" has a purpose meant for it by its creator. Man made spoons and forks to be able to eat, the car to drive, planes to fly etc etc. So if there really is a God I'd like to hear OUR purpose. I've been told that it is to worship God (suggesting that he has an ego problem) and some are just satisfied with the hope that God MUST have a purpose that He hasnt told us yet.

What do you think the purpose is? Think about it. A true God who loves you would never want you to blindly follow or falsely believe if you can know for yourself with testable and discernable evidence. Again, the question is do you want to know for yourself?

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Anyways, I can go on about how empty the paradigm of religion is and how nothing in it makes logical sense but I couldn't care less what people believe in. Religion is good I suppose for people who have lost hope in this life as it gives them something to look forward to in the next one.

It's not just something to look forward to. It's more than that. Do you really think the next life is going to be much different? You will cary the same knowlege and beliefs with you as you have here in this existance. And again the choice will be yours to either find out the truth or not.

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It becomes a sensitive matter though in issues like this one because it seems that the religious people believe they have some God-given right to impose their beliefs on others. "Gays can't marry because God said so". How stupid does that sound. If He felt so strongly about it, I'm sure He can come down and say so Himself.

No we are not to impose our beliefs on others. After all Christ taught us not to judge others but worry about ourselves. But given a vote, for or against gay marriage, well that is my choice by the democratic system and I choose to oppose it. That is my right.

You don't need a religious argument here.

Historically marriage in the entire 10,000 year history of mankind has never been between a man and a man, or women and women.

Granted out societies have changed, but I don't see the need or utility to change this longest standing of our human traditions.

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Originally posted by razmataz Hence, why I said "all rationality". You have to be very "irrational" to believe in God.

You make a weak argument here. Don't know if its because you don't care whether people believe in God (as you write), but your own perception is a much a matter of belief as that of the existence of a god. If, however, by the term "rational" you mean die-hard advocation of materialism, then you are of course right. Note, though, that I know of no good argument for adoption of materialism - and I have been actively pursuing them.

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Originally posted by razmataz To briefly touch on the subject though. The belief in God depends so much on trust and blind faith that it becomes ridiculous.

Great reasoning. Belief, by definition, is about something you do not know. Hence the distinction between "knowledge" and "belief".

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Originally posted by razmataz Religion is wholly based on the notion of "weak evidence". That is, unverifiable accounts of miracles and whatnot. "Strong evidence" on the other hand is such that anybody can verify it. The boiling point of water is 100 degrees celsius. I am inclined to believe that because I have tested it myself and so can you. But listening to miracles of centuries past is no different than ghost stories to me. Ironically, these miracles have dried up. If David Blaine existed thousands of years ago- he would have ruled the world I reckon.

Here you go changing the subject. You said that "no god exists". Here you talk about how religious movements are crap. On that I will agree, but that's definately not what your initial claim was about.

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Originally posted by razmataz Everthing that is "created" has a purpose meant for it by its creator. Man made spoons and forks to be able to eat, the car to drive, planes to fly etc etc. So if there really is a God I'd like to hear OUR purpose. I've been told that it is to worship God (suggesting that he has an ego problem) and some are just satisfied with the hope that God MUST have a purpose that He hasnt told us yet.

You're making a classic mistake in looking for a "purpose" in a god/man relation. "Purpose", along with "time", "causality", "space", etc. are properties of our universe or our way of thinking of it. When you go and use these terms outside of the universe (as in relating god to man) they become meaningless.

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Originally posted by razmataz Anyways, I can go on about how empty the paradigm of religion is and how nothing in it makes logical sense but I couldn't care less what people believe in. Religion is good I suppose for people who have lost hope in this life as it gives them something to look forward to in the next one.

Not all religions preach eternal life or re-incarnation.

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Originally posted by razmataz It becomes a sensitive matter though in issues like this one because it seems that the religious people believe they have some God-given right to impose their beliefs on others. "Gays can't marry because God said so". How stupid does that sound. If He felt so strongly about it, I'm sure He can come down and say so Himself.

Agree.

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Originally posted by Yoepus You don't need a religious argument here. Historically marriage in the entire 10,000 year history of mankind has never been between a man and a man, or women and women. Granted out societies have changed, but I don't see the need or utility to change this longest standing of our human traditions.

Good points. In every culture on earth it has been man/woman. Hence, the definition 'marriage' became union of man/woman. Why? because they are by design able to make children. And propogation of the species is a fundamental requirement of all species in order to survive.

P1-'Marriage' by definition is the legal union of a man and woman within a society

P2-Man and woman in societies are married in order to naturally procreate; allowing for continuation of their species, a fundamental need of all species.

P3-Homosexuals can not procreate (naturally) therfore,

Conclusion: Homosexuals can not be married.



Ofcourse P2 can always be argued I suppose. Gays would say there are other reasons for marriage just as important as procreation, like love, pleasure, finacial benefits, financial sharing but without procreation homo's would all become extinct. Ultimately, isn't procreation the most important of all?

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Originally posted by tecnolover Ultimately, isn't procreation the most important of all?

maybe if overpopulation wasn't a concern.

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Originally posted by tecnolover Ultimately, isn't procreation the most important of all?

To whom? Why do we, as a species, need to last?

Last edited by trancaholic on Oct-27-2004 at 17:37