I don't see it as an insult.

How many awards, diplomas, etc. are not signed, but instead have a signature fascimile. My college diploma does not have a real signuture on it, does that make it less valid?

In my view, a signature does not make or break the letters that are being sent, the idea and thought behind it do. I don't know how Rumsfield going through letters signing his signature one after the other does anything more. We'd be kidding ourselves to think that either he or President Bush stop to read, ponder then sign any of these letters. Previous Secretaries of Defense have not sent letters at all, Rusmfeld taking the initiative to send out a letter shows more to me then if he did nothing. I think most families would rather have something than nothing at all.

I realize Bush signs his letters, but to me having a computer sign a signature and having a signature that was written in two seconds as someone shoved a letter in front of the President are not that much different.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I don't see it as an insult. How many awards, diplomas, etc. are not signed, but instead have a signature fascimile. My college diploma does not have a real signuture on it, does that make it less valid? In my view, a signature does not make or break the letters that are being sent, the idea and thought behind it do. I don't know how Rumsfield going through letters signing his signature one after the other does anything more. We'd be kidding ourselves to think that either he or President Bush stop to read, ponder then sign any of these letters. Previous Secretaries of Defense have not sent letters at all, Rusmfeld taking the initiative to send out a letter shows more to me then if he did nothing. I think most families would rather have something than nothing at all. I realize Bush signs his letters, but to me having a computer sign a signature and having a signature that was written in two seconds as someone shoved a letter in front of the President are not that much different.

Are you kidding me?? You're equating a college diploma with a letter that's supposed to console the family of a loved one who sacrificed their life for the country??? They sacrificed their life and the secretary of defense can't take the two seconds it takes to personally sign his signature to show some regard for the loss of life? And if you think that most families would be happier with "something" than nothing at all, than why don't you tell that to the families of the deceased who complained to the stars and stripes newspaper?

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I don't see it as an insult. How many awards, diplomas, etc. are not signed, but instead have a signature fascimile. My college diploma does not have a real signuture on it, does that make it less valid? In my view, a signature does not make or break the letters that are being sent, the idea and thought behind it do. I don't know how Rumsfield going through letters signing his signature one after the other does anything more. We'd be kidding ourselves to think that either he or President Bush stop to read, ponder then sign any of these letters. Previous Secretaries of Defense have not sent letters at all, Rusmfeld taking the initiative to send out a letter shows more to me then if he did nothing. I think most families would rather have something than nothing at all. I realize Bush signs his letters, but to me having a computer sign a signature and having a signature that was written in two seconds as someone shoved a letter in front of the President are not that much different.

this ain't a diploma, it's the final acknowledgement of service to country that the family has for the memory of their deceased.

it also serves the purpose of reminding the secretary of exactly how many citizens have died. regardless of how long they ponder over the death, if he has to sign over a hundred in a day, it's a little more eye-opening than reading reports on his desk.

i can almost visualize him agreeing to send letters at the beginning of this war.
-"yeah, i'll even write letters to the families of the deceased, after all iraq will welcome us with open arms once we rid them of saddam. hell, i betcha i won't have to send more than three"

This is gayer than Abu Ghraib. If this is the best thing the left has right now to push their agenda of getting Rummy out, it's pretty pathetic. But alas, they're getting their way, and while there is no real precedent here(as Neo pointed out), Rummy will begin spending more time signing a "real" signature on a piece of paper, and less time dealing with the much less important task of running the actual military campaign. Quit lapping up the shit the media is feeding you. Does this issue really mean that much to you? Seriously. Occrider, shouldn't you be more concerned with Freddie's ridiculous hedging and derivatives portfolio that whether or not a machine put the finishing touch on a letter vs. a hand held Bic? Do you think it changes how anyone feels about soldiers dying on the battlefield? If it makes you feel that upset, fine. But I think there are many much more important issues to get your tailfeathers ruffled over. Do you really want to call for Rummy's head because he's not being sensitive enough?

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Originally posted by ResonantDrag this ain't a diploma, it's the final acknowledgement of service to country that the family has for the memory of their deceased. it also serves the purpose of reminding the secretary of exactly how many citizens have died. regardless of how long they ponder over the death, if he has to sign over a hundred in a day, it's a little more eye-opening than reading reports on his desk. i can almost visualize him agreeing to send letters at the beginning of this war. -"yeah, i'll even write letters to the families of the deceased, after all iraq will welcome us with open arms once we rid them of saddam. hell, i betcha i won't have to send more than three"

If Rummy really had his way he would probably just send a mass email.

Innocent civilians as well as soldiers are dying for the bullshit neo-con agenda, and it seems like Rummy and his cronies could care less.

There was no moral imperative to go to war in Iraq, but it had been the neo-con plan to make it seem as though there was one. Lies and deceit are all we get with this administration.

We wanted to avenge the deaths of 9/11 - but Iraq was a much higher priority because he had all of those WMD's! Yeah, right!

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Originally posted by Shakka This is gayer than Abu Ghraib.

Yes because material weaknesses in a command and control structure that allowed violations of geneva conventions is really immaterial and "gay" to criticize.

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If this is the best thing the left has right now to push their agenda of getting Rummy out, it's pretty pathetic. But alas, they're getting their way,

No the best reason to push Rumsfeld out of office would be his woeful lack of preparation for the war that coudln't be construed as anything but neglect:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...war+planning%22

The second best reason would probably be Rumsfeld either lying or incompetantly asserting to the troops that the army was producing armor for humvees as "fast as humanely possible" only to be refuted by the armor manufacturers who told the defense department they could produce double the armor that they currently produced:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLI...sfeld.senators/

This incident, is hardly reason enough to "out" rumsfeld but it most certainly is enough of a reason to call him out on his bullshit and either sign the fucking letters of the people dying in Iraq that have his name on them, or don't send the goddamn letter at all and defer it to someone who gives a shit.

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and while there is no real precedent here(as Neo pointed out)

The precedent was a personalized letter from the unit commander. The precedent now is a generic form letter from the Sec-Defense with his name stamped on it.

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, Rummy will begin spending more time signing a "real" signature on a piece of paper, and less time dealing with the much less important task of running the actual military campaign.

Oh ok, and so Bush is clearly demonstrating what a retard he is for taking the time to sign each KIA letter when he should be dealing with the more important task of running the actual country?? So which is it, Bush or Rumsfeld?

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Quit lapping up the shit the media is feeding you. Does this issue really mean that much to you? Seriously. Do you think it changes how anyone feels about soldiers dying on the battlefield? If it makes you feel that upset, fine. But I think there are many much more important issues to get your tailfeathers ruffled over. Do you really want to call for Rummy's head because he's not being sensitive enough?

This is really priceless. After you tell Zild to shut up for calling your tribute poem to the troops "gay" and disrespecing our troops you're now saying that getting incensed over this issue is "gay" and that criticizing Rumsfeld for this is "pathetic"??? Ok fine:
Stars and Stripes Go to Page 5

It's nice that we all know that you think Army Spc. Ivan Medina, Bette Sullivan, and all the other families that are pissed off about this are "gay" and "pathetic". Way to respect the troops and the families of the the troops that were killed.

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Occrider, shouldn't you be more concerned with Freddie's ridiculous hedging and derivatives portfolio that whether or not a machine put the finishing touch on a letter vs. a hand held Bic?

I'm still struggling to find the relevance of this particular segway, but ok guy who knows nothing of the specific FM controls of the derivatives portfolio. Please explain to me why I should be concerned with the Portfolio particularly since it's mark to market on a daily basis? But before you do so, you may want to read Moody's December Risk Management Assessment report and check out the section on Freddie Mac's Portfolio Market Value Sensistivity monitoring. Investors who put their money where their mouth is probably have ... which may explain why the stock is at an all time high.

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Originally posted by occrider Yes because material weaknesses in a command and control structure that allowed violations of geneva conventions is really immaterial and "gay" to criticize.....

Christ, it's Christma....errr the "holiday season"(I wouldn't want to offend any non-Christians). Why is everyone so riled up? It's easy to sit back at home, watch your plasma TVs and lob complaints and criticisms around about what's wrong with things and how poorly planned something is, but God forbid anyone talk about the great successes that have happened during this war. You expect perfection every single step of the way. I got news for ya: a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. Now shut yer yapper and go play with your yule log!

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Originally posted by occrider Investors who put their money where their mouth is probably have ... which may explain why the stock is at an all time high.

Either that, or they're so obsessed with making money and playing momentum that they simply ignore accounting shinanigans that they simply cannot understand. It's the go-go 90's all over again! Of course your logic also implies that just because a stock price goes up, the underlying company fundamentals must also be great. Enron anyone? But alas, I digress. This is fodder for another boring thread.

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Originally posted by Shakka Christ, it's Christma....errr the "holiday season"(I wouldn't want to offend any non-Christians). Why is everyone so riled up? It's easy to sit back at home, watch your plasma TVs and lob complaints and criticisms around about what's wrong with things and how poorly planned something is, but God forbid anyone talk about the great successes that have happened during this war. You expect perfection every single step of the way. I got news for ya: a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. Now shut yer yapper and go play with your yule log!

I dunno ... I guess I just have high expectations of public office, given how much I pay twice a month to support their services to me. But you're right, I do need to have a few cold ones with my yule log by my pagan tree. Have a good winter solstice and merry Saturnalia

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Originally posted by Shakka Either that, or they're so obsessed with making money and playing momentum that they simply ignore accounting shinanigans that they simply cannot understand. It's the go-go 90's all over again! Of course your logic also implies that just because a stock price goes up, the underlying company fundamentals must also be great. Enron anyone? But alas, I digress. This is fodder for another boring thread.

No my logic implies that people read the ratings reports of auditors who actually have a clue about what they're talking about and some basis of opinion. It's no accident that stock price increased by a large margin on the same day the Moody's report came out.

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Originally posted by occrider I dunno ... I guess I just have high expectations of public office, given how much I pay twice a month to support their services to me. But you're right, I do need to have a few cold ones with my yule log by my pagan tree. Have a good winter solstice and merry Saturnalia

Not that I don't agree with you 100% about public office having standards. I absoultely do, and believe that they should all be held accountable for their actions while in office.