quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley When did Israel give the Gaza Strip back then? I haven't heard of any settlements being dismantled yet...and I have also not seen anything to suggest that Israel is "giving Gaza back" either, just dismantling the settlements...

1994 May 18: Israeli troops leave most of the Gaza Strip, and control is passed on to the Palestinian National Authority.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/gazastrp.htm

Are the people who settled there after the 67' war supposed to just leave? I know there are many orthodox jews who settle and have huge families just because its "their land" and such shit, and I really can't say I agree with them, but other then those few areas gaza is under the palestinian's control

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Originally posted by Dj Tomer 1994 May 18: Israeli troops leave most of the Gaza Strip, and control is passed on to the Palestinian National Authority. http://i-cias.com/e.o/gazastrp.htm Are the people who settled there after the 67' war supposed to just leave? I know there are many orthodox jews who settle and have huge families just because its "their land" and such shit, and I really can't say I agree with them, but other then those few areas gaza is under the palestinian's control

Well if the settlements were still there (and everything that comes with that) I can hardly see how this constitutes "leaving Gaza". Also, the PA would not have had complete sovereignty over Gaza as amongst other things it would not retain control over its borders - Israel would. Anyway, the Oslo Accords were a farce and were never gonna achieve anything...

Georgey,

The whole concept for achieving peace between Israel and the Palestinians is centered around one idea: Land for peace.

Unfortunately the Palestinians can make no believable assurances whatsoever to Israel in regards to peace. Therefore why should Israel give land away? Especially when considering that Israelis believe giving land away will bring not more peace, but more war?

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Georgey, The whole concept for achieving peace between Israel and the Palestinians is centered around one idea: Land for peace. Unfortunately the Palestinians can make no believable assurances whatsoever to Israel in regards to peace. Therefore why should Israel give land away? Especially when considering that Israelis believe giving land away will bring not more peace, but more war?

The 'land for peace' notion is a pile of shit totally in Israel's favour. It means Israel can use any instance of violence (which there obviously will be given the conditions the Palestinians live under) to not give away any land that it does not want to

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Originally posted by George Smiley The 'land for peace' notion is a pile of shit totally in Israel's favour. It means Israel can use any instance of violence (which there obviously will be given the conditions the Palestinians live under) to not give away any land that it does not want to

I don't understand how land for peace is a totally in Israel's favor.
The Palestinians can use any notion of 'land' they want returned to legitimize their violence.

Also note that in 1993 Palestinian living conditions were probably at the highest levels they have ever been. So using the 'conditions' argument is applicable perhaps to justify violence today, not back then.

Lastly 'land for peace' might be a pile of shit (it obviously didn't work so one can make an easy argument of it) but the facts do not change:

Israelis want peace.
Palestinians (supposedly) want land.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I don't understand how land for peace is a totally in Israel's favor. The Palestinians can use any notion of 'land' they want returned to legitimize their violence.

No, there was no legislation giving Palestinians the right to use force to claim land, whereas Israel could use force to claim land

quote:

Also note that in 1993 Palestinian living conditions were probably at the highest levels they have ever been. So using the 'conditions' argument is applicable perhaps to justify violence today, not back then.

Well after the election of Netanyahu, the Palestinian economy totally collapsed thanks to his blockades etc. He also DOUBLED the amount of settlements in the occupied territories...can you blame the Palestinians for returning to violence after that?!

quote:

Israelis want peace. Palestinians (supposedly) want land.

Well I dont think you can speak for every Israeli can you? What about the settlers? Do they want peace??

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Originally posted by George Smiley No, there was no legislation giving Palestinians the right to use force to claim land, whereas Israel could use force to claim land

I don't think Israel has any legislation to use force to claim land either. Perhaps you can point me to the right legal document.

Regardless, Palestinians incase you have not noticed, don't operate or fight according to the jurisdiction of 'law'. As they so craftly have demonstrated to the world with their use of terror. There is no legislation giving Palestinians the right ot use terror, ye they use terror regardless. So what's the point of your argument?

Palestinian always retain the ability to justify their terror by saying some piece of land they want has not been returned. Just like Israel retains the ability to justify its war actions by saying the Palestinians haven't given them peace. In negotations these two interests are as equal and in effect cancel each other out. If both sides are actually interested in coming to a diplomatic solution, they should in theory not utilize these abilities since if one side plays its abilties both sides lose.

Or in simpler terms. If both sides agree to the spirit of Land for Peace. Israel won't use the claim that their is violence against giving land, and Palestinians won't use the claim that all the land hasn't been given to them as a claim to violence.

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Well after the election of Netanyahu, the Palestinian economy totally collapsed thanks to his blockades etc. He also DOUBLED the amount of settlements in the occupied territories...can you blame the Palestinians for returning to violence after that?!

Yes, but I can also blame the Palestinians for returning to violence before that.

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Well I dont think you can speak for every Israeli can you? What about the settlers? Do they want peace??

I don't have too. The Israeli government speaks for every Israeli, and the Israeli government has said numerous times over numerous Prime Ministers they want peace and are willing to give the Palestinians land in return.

I've never heard the Palestinian Prime Minister(s) even ennunciate the assurance that they are interested in giving Israel peace in exchange for land (by expressly stating they don't seek the destruction of Israel).

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