quote:

Originally posted by Subtle listening to VST Trance is like driving a false Ferrari.. or buying false clothes.. it hasn`t the right soul.. or just doesn`t "feel" right..

Can I nominate this for bullshit-reply-of-2005 please?

No offence, but why do you need hardware to make 'proper' music? What is the difference between a lead that comes from the Virus B or from the Powercore Virus plugin? They basically use the same algorithms, but the Powercore is a software plugin.

Maybe this is a wrong example.

What if I made a track with true instruments, and remade it only with true-sample based VSTs like Spectrasonics' Trilogy. Could you tell me the difference between those two? Maybe you could if you knew. But if you didn't know, I guess you still would think it hasn't got the 'right soul'.

No you won't, unless you have some extraordinary powers.

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Originally posted by Passiva No offence, but why do you need hardware to make 'proper' music? What is the difference between a lead that comes from the Virus B or from the Powercore Virus plugin? They basically use the same algorithms, but the Powercore is a software plugin. What if I made a track with true instruments, and remade it only with true-sample based VSTs like Spectrasonics' Trilogy. Maybe this is a wrong example.

I think it was.. both of those are software/hardware hybrids.. I think he was referring to SoftSynths such as Reason, z3ta, V-Station, Pro-53, etc etc..

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quote:

Originally posted by Passiva Can I nominate this for bullshit-reply-of-2005 please? No offence, but why do you need hardware to make 'proper' music? What is the difference between a lead that comes from the Virus B or from the Powercore Virus plugin? They basically use the same algorithms, but the Powercore is a software plugin. Maybe this is a wrong example. What if I made a track with true instruments, and remade it only with true-sample based VSTs like Spectrasonics' Trilogy. Could you tell me the difference between those two? Maybe you could if you knew. But if you didn't know, I guess you still would think it hasn't got the 'right soul'. No you won't, unless you have some extraordinary powers.

I will ignore the Powercore argument.. which isnt quite software.. we all know that.. u NEED the hardware to run it.. its like putting a hardware synth INTO the computer and calling a software..

about the Trilogy.. its not "quite" perfect as it is not sampled on each note, which makes alot of the notes sound.. kinda wierd on different keys.. Trilogy is excellent if u hit the right keys..

u cannot deny the fact that hardware synths sounds alot better than software, no doubt about it.. thats a true fact as it is.. alot of good things can come out of a Software workstation... but it would be physically impossible to make sounds in the likes of Push using software.. and that is the only example i need for that..

u can make excellent stuff using software.. but i know there are many people that agree with me in the fact that Trance these days has become soulless.. and its has much to do with the possibility of people using VST`s and software only.. in the early days a producer was much more "skilled" than nowadays.. learning his hardware equipment to the max.. (and that is what it is... the soul, and the hard work behind the tune.. )

lets face it.. anyone nowadays can make some sort of trance tune.. using only presets and samples.. but. off course, making a track sounding good enough for a release is hard and demands skills.. sure does.. (if not i would have releases too ) but point is, it doesnt take as MUCH effort as before.. hence its losing its soul..

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but for all those supersaw sounds, the software still needs some years to get there.

on the contrary i can bosh up a very convincing supersaw using rb2k's reaktor jp8000 reaktor ensemble + vanguard + internal fruity plugs. what i find is not quite so reproduceable is the kind of warmth that analogue synths have. analogue monosynths in particular i feel dont have great translations into software. just trying to recreate psy basslines, i always like that...underside that you get with a real sh 101 bass or a real 303 bass or a prophet bass. the filter on old analogues and some VAs like nord lead and virus are seriously smooth as well. which is another thing i dont often see in software. vanguard's filter does noticeably step sometimes. the virus filter never steps.

i think also that hardware is very overrated. dont get me wrong. i love my virus. but just because some famous producer uses it doesnt mean its flat out good. my virus is only as good as the presets and my ability to use it. buying a virus wont make your tunes better. not by a long shot. the poly limit on all hardware synths is severely limiting. with software, you can keep adding more and more layers till the cow comes home. more isnt necessarily better. but the complexity of your patches can go through the roof with multiple layered softsynths. i always hit the poly limit on the virus quite early with unison on. especially with creating pads. also, zeta is seriously close to virus sounding. i only realised when i tried to make patches on the demo recently. its seriously fat and has the tightest bass of any sofysynth ive heard. i just hear the excuse that hardware is better flat out cuz it costs more or cuz loads of famous people use it. but its really not true. they are good instruments. but they have their limitations. softies have different limitations. in the right hands either of them can make incredible music.

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Originally posted by Derivative on the contrary i can bosh up a very convincing supersaw using rb2k's reaktor jp8000 reaktor ensemble + vanguard + internal fruity plugs.

well, it's still far away... and it's not that minimal that almost nobody can hear it. if you have proper monitors you know that nothing can beat syths like a virus...

Software synths ( vsti's) are really good these days. The topline hardware models like the virus, nord lead, supernova etc.. are still leaps ahead of the current vsti's, but things will change over time.

btw, i read in a magazine that FM7, pro-53 and korg legacy collection replicates their hardware counterparts very good.

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DJDIRTY awesome post agree 100%
Well i started out with software and yes it helped me get started but it started pissing me off and wasn't able to keep focus enough to learn much. Thats when i found out Iam more a hands on person, so I bought the
Virus C hmm yummy.
I think its best to have both software+hardware. For me I appreciate the sounds and everything more when I do them on the virus rather than a vst.

Like DjDirty said software makes you have to have a kick ass computer all the damn time, upgrading is very expensive, might as well get hardware Your paying just as much(if ur buying the software). MOst vst's eat the shit outta your cpu as well.
Im one for hardware+ a little software cuz it does have some nice advantages.

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well i have some info... yes hardware can sound better but thats not what this threads really about. its about the fact that software is giving hardware a run for its money due to the complexity some vstis are being made with. check out z3ta+ and seriously play with it open up the wave shaper and make whatever you want kind of waveform times 6. play with the mod matrix and its insane. now check out for anaolgue warmth get arturia's arp2600v and minimoogv or check out their cs-80v. throw psp vintage warmer on it and antreas tube and fuck your set. seriously i spend hours getting lost in both synths from the mere programming abilties. almost to the extent i get with hardware. and really to make good sounding shit you have to learn your synth and learn it in and out or no matter what you use you wont ever quite get that sound that you hear in your head. and in all reality thats really what we all want to finally hear.

ive heard producers who use software make some insane sounding tracks. check out james holden shit and compare it to say airbase shit. in sound quality and sound depth and warmth. i gureentee you that holdens tracks will be better 100x. the funny thing is airbase shit started to not sell as good as he wanted or something and started producing cheeze completely changed the genre almost..... yes airbase has some good shit but alot of it is crap and i know it but its still catchy and good.

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Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.

I'm strictly software, due to I don't save money so I spend paycheck after paycheck on software. If I did some saving a few hardware synths are cool, but I'm really experienced with software synths and they don't make a mess around my computer.

But soon enough i'll have a mix of hardware/software.

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zeta. yes. that synth is unbelievable. i also recently got into the absynth 2 demo and bloody hell is that one amazing synth. i definitely want to get one of these in the future and its looking like absynth at the moment (cuz i already got a virus). apart from the fact that both sound absolutely sick, i think some people are missing the fact that the sound an instrument can make is not the only factor to take into account here. ultimately im more productive on absynth and vanguard and heck even zeta than i am on a virus. because they feel more natural to work with for me. absynth in particular is so freeform i love the way you can twist a sound into something completely alien. the layout is the epitome of logic. i love it although it is deliberately unlike any traditional synth. you dont have to be so conscious about what you are twiddling as much (as with the virus) and for that reason the end result in my case has so much more of the energy and the vitality i put into it (even though it is quite often accidental) than i can with a synth im struggling to program. but thats just the way i work. some people find programming a virus is about as instinctive as eating.

the point is it doesnt matter what instrument you use. its irrelevant that lots of other people use it. its irrelevant that its spec sheet looks good on paper. the important thing is you use an instrument which feels natural to use and the rest just happens, with time and alot of patience. and alot of fuck ups. im with the KVR general attitude on this issue. i can definitely see why some people sold all their studio gear to go all software. i can see how some people are hardware purists. but really thats just becoming fixated with a certain sound and a certain way of working. it really isnt better at all. just different. in many cases alot of VSTis that attempt to recreate hardware fail to do so because of the lack of processing power available at this time. that will change. but there are some softsynths (like absynth) which you honestly wont find anyway else. and some like zeta+ which for whatever reason just plain rocks.

Last edited by Derivative on Jan-29-2005 at 20:29

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle I will ignore the Powercore argument.. which isnt quite software.. we all know that.. u NEED the hardware to run it.. its like putting a hardware synth INTO the computer and calling a software..

this aint an argument too. you need hardware to run ANYTHING, including softsynths. powercore virus is different because it is specially coded for powercore DSPs, instead VSTi which are coded for intel-based processors.

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u can make excellent stuff using software.. but i know there are many people that agree with me in the fact that Trance these days has become soulless.. and its has much to do with the possibility of people using VST`s and software only.. in the early days a producer was much more "skilled" than nowadays.. learning his hardware equipment to the max.. (and that is what it is... the soul, and the hard work behind the tune.. )

trance is soulless because the people making tracks are making them for money instead for the love for music. cosmic baby and humate from 1994 sound shit compared to today's scooter, but that music had SOUL, it had FEELING. the music is all about the person behind it, not the equipment, which you seem to ignore here.
you must understand the market for that music is different, and the way world works now is different. blaming VSTs for shitty music is a complete nonsense. a bad producer loaded with money is still a bad producer, but nowadays a good trancer can become well known even if he is not loaded - and it is wonderful if you ask me.

quote:

lets face it.. anyone nowadays can make some sort of trance tune.. using only presets and samples.. but. off course, making a track sounding good enough for a release is hard and demands skills.. sure does.. (if not i would have releases too ) but point is, it doesnt take as MUCH effort as before.. hence its losing its soul..

yes, everyone can make a trance tune nowadays. there is a lot of good music out there, but, the problem is that there is even more bad music, so it becomes harder and harder to find good tunes.
hell, in last two years i heard a lot of tracks which sound great - fat, tight, wide, everything. but, essentially, those tracks don't have that something that made tracks like cygnus ex - superstring classics. and those people have the hardware to do it properly. they just lack proper motive (since money is no.1) and musical theory.