Excellent post.

Seriously, "less is more". The answer to making your shit sound pro isn't to layer 4 billion things together. Start with a simple idea, build the groove around that. Remember, this music is for a dancefloor, and if you forget that part then I will personally never be a fan =P

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Originally posted by Sean Walsh Excellent post. Seriously, "less is more". The answer to making your shit sound pro isn't to layer 4 billion things together. Start with a simple idea, build the groove around that. Remember, this music is for a dancefloor, and if you forget that part then I will personally never be a fan =P

"Less is more" was exactly the point of what the original trance pioneers were trying to achieve in the early 90's. It was sort of a knee jerk reaction to what was extremely popular (namely UK hardcore - the genre that spawned both jungle and happy hardcore - but to an extent the techno of the time as well).

Timbral modulation to create feelings and soundscapes was the order of the day in 1992, NOT powerful melodies and harmonies that came towards the end of the 90's. The TB-303 was an integral part of the trance movement, as the buildup from tweaking it could produce "a nervous breakdown on the dancefloor" as noted by Ramon Zenker, one half of trance pioneering duo Hardfloor (the ultimate trance classic of the early 90's is exemplified by their biggest hit, "Acperience 1", which devastated dancefloors worldwide - yes even here in the States in the early 90's).

Stripping things down to a simple beat for the foundation was a pretty integral part of the early movement as well. Many tracks were based on a simple bass drum, snare, hi-hats, and cymbals drum set.

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Why blame producers for making music with 3 minute breakdowns? Blame the DJ for playing crap like that to a crowd.

I mean, you can produce what the hell you want. Doesn't mean it's good for a dance floor, and DJs should realise this.

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Originally posted by pho mo Why blame producers for making music with 3 minute breakdowns? Blame the DJ for playing crap like that to a crowd.

You realize how many records are like this? Damn near every L-Vee production has at least a 64 bar breakdown, if not longer (don't get me wrong, the rest of the song is AWESOME for many of his tracks, notably Planisphere - Totem). I think there have been a couple Katana productions/remixes with ultra long breakdowns. I wanna say some G&D tunes are like this too.

If you're a DJ Mag top-50 DJ that draws a huge crowd, you can get away with it, but if you're a small timer, what records do you have to choose from if they're all like the ones I mentioned? Do ya switch to techno?

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The problem isn't with breakdowns IMO, the problem is with throwing a breakdown in there for the sake of having one. Listening to a lot of tunes, you can see that this is more or less what they did, like, "Okay I have a decent melody and some beats, now all I need to do is have a breakdown and I have a full track!". This is something I personally struggle with quite a bit myself, and would like to take more examples from techno in how they drop the beats out but keep the energy up.

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quote:

Originally posted by pho mo Why blame producers for making music with 3 minute breakdowns? Blame the DJ for playing crap like that to a crowd. I mean, you can produce what the hell you want. Doesn't mean it's good for a dance floor, and DJs should realise this.

Ditto

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this thread got me motivated to do something a bit oldschool oriented, eschewing both the breakdowns and melody/harmony almost completely. I whipped up a little something in Reason and Rebirth over the course of the past few days, Rewired it up to Cubase for the final mixdown/mastering annd came up with this:


DJMaytag - QuaGmire.mp3

It's almost entirely based on tweaking of various paramaters to get some different and interesting timbres. The name also implies that it was, until the very last stages, based entirely upon the note of G. Not the key of G, the note of G. It was pretty damn good for just 4 synths (303 x2, Subtractor, Malstrom) all playing the same note, with lots of evolving textures keeping it interesting (yes, the final output was more than just a few synths playing one note).

Would this be something you're talking about, something different than the same old "computer trance" or "supersaw lead trance"?

Enjoy

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cool

One big point that I was trying to make was show how the standard judgement of what copying a dance track is has changed a lot. I used the gouryella example off the top of my head because I was listening to gouryella at the time I was posting it, but I'm sure I could find something about every track of the last few years that traces back to some great idea an artist had 5 years ago that people have based their shit upon now. I think the thought process of some producers needs changing. Most of these bedroom producers just want to be able to produce what the "big guys" can produce, and they sit there with little vsts, so happy when they achieve something similar to the big guys, and it leaves every single track completely devoid of emotion, memory, and everything else. It's just quantity. Sometimes one track will get signed, at which point all the other bedroom producers will go, "yay, it got signed! It can be done! I'll do it one day, too!" And it's a retarded cycle. Seriously. These people forget that dance music/any electronic music is still music. There are a few rules you cannot break when you're creating any kind of music: rules like emotion, remembrance, and passion. Those three major things dissapear into the past when you get these little producers who just can't wait to create that cool lead he heard in xxxx track. He may even come up with a semi-decent melody, but I can always spot if the melody is a phony. It's so obvious. Then that person may ask, "There's just one thing missing from my track... I can't figure out what it is!" So he asks fellow producers for help, and they all point out things that could be improved, and he fixes them and is satisfied he may have fixed the problem. No. The problem is, you're track just that, a track. Classically thinking, it's a bunch of soundwaves melded together. You have to find the balance between scientific skill as a producer and emotional skill. If you don't, you're producing soundwaves in mass quantity - good job, ass.

Maytag, Im impressed!! Just listened to Quagmire, and if that only took you a weekend then you are my god,my role model, my aim!! It sounds so professional. I too fall into the catagory this thread was set up to shame,I am using Cubase SX which i am trying to teach myself to use, but every track I try to right I think needs to be a MASSIVE tune that will get snapped up instantly - but they all sound so basic, and well - shit compared to Quagmire!! Think its time I started taking baby steps and reading more of this forum, and listening to the expert advise you guys give. The next track I start doing will be just for ME to listen to and enjoy - not for the dancefloor I think it could fill. Thanks guys - ive been Excorcised!!
MP

quote:

Originally posted by RIPassion It's so obvious. Then that person may ask, "There's just one thing missing from my track... I can't figure out what it is!" So he asks fellow producers for help, and they all point out things that could be improved, and he fixes them and is satisfied he may have fixed the problem. No. The problem is, you're track just that, a track. Classically thinking, it's a bunch of soundwaves melded together. You have to find the balance between scientific skill as a producer and emotional skill. If you don't, you're producing soundwaves in mass quantity - good job, ass.

Ok some of the points above do reflect on me...mainly the part were i asked fellow producers for help...but thats in the field of mastering and eq'ing which i have yet to master...and to see if they feel the expression and emotion in the track that i felt during its production.

I dunno why anyone would create a whole thread just to bash a certain category of people...but to answer a few statements in my opinion would maybe resolve some issues...as well as some narrow minded statements.

Me being a producer...well for me its been away of escaping this shit reality...the feeling from coming home after meeting people i pretend to like...socializing with people i hate just to get further in life...makes me feel better...along with giving me back the reason why i continue to live on this shit reality. This is what started me in producing...as i developed...so has my ambition to express my ideas and emotions in music.

I try my best to understand how to create trance music along with understanding its elements and structure. In order to master a skill u must know its basics and hows its evolved to the present state imo.
Therefore creating those cheesy breakdowns and fromage leads is imo a stepping stone to discovering this genre...and to discover how u can implement ur own ideas and styles which would lead to the pioneering lvl and taking music to the next step.

Music evolves...and so does its creators...

and for the ones still draggin on the cheesy method...there jus keepin that scene alive...no harm done...if u cant stand it...why listen to it?

Seb.

P.S. awesome track Maytag

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quote:

Originally posted by MessiahProject Maytag, Im impressed!! Just listened to Quagmire, and if that only took you a weekend then you are my god,my role model, my aim!! It sounds so professional. I too fall into the catagory this thread was set up to shame,I am using Cubase SX which i am trying to teach myself to use, but every track I try to right I think needs to be a MASSIVE tune that will get snapped up instantly - but they all sound so basic, and well - shit compared to Quagmire!! Think its time I started taking baby steps and reading more of this forum, and listening to the expert advise you guys give. The next track I start doing will be just for ME to listen to and enjoy - not for the dancefloor I think it could fill. Thanks guys - ive been Excorcised!! MP

Thanx MP, I'm glad you're diggin it.

While it did just take a few days (more like a full week), it took me over 10 years of noodling around to get to the point where I could do this so quickly. I took TONS of baby steps over the years, learning on hardware (mixers, synths, FX) and getting various bits of info wherever I could. I wish that forums like this existed in 1994 when I started, then maybe I might have been making tunes like Quagmire sooner?

I'd agree with doing things that YOU like first, rather than for a target audience. If you try to impress someone else, you might not impress yourself.

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