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Blue Balls
Suspended User



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: CTA #666

quote:
Originally posted by Diginerd


Last chance to skip the pics and just read the point below.

http://www.ehowa.com/features/suicidebombers.shtml








Those pics are so fake.


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Old Post Mar-04-2005 09:19  Europe
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
fair enough on points A and C but on point B you aren't right.


y...o...u... a-g-r-e-e with me on something?

quote:

The first recorded Arab nationalist movement was a secret society in Beirut in 1876 by a group of Christian Arabs at the American University. Most sources agree Arab nationalism was born out of the oppressive nature of the Ottoman empire (after the Young Turk revolution in 1908) Zionism and Israel had nothing to do with the ideology's creation.

The Arab nationalist movement grew steadily and yes, it did begin to focus on the land graps that preceded Israel's independence and then after that Israel did provide it a focus.

The reason Arab nationalism died was simply because it didn't deliver its promised goals and the people of the Arab nations gave up on it (after 1967).


The 1973 war was defintely a Pan-Arab war inspired by nationalism. So you can't say Arab nationalism died because of the humiliation of 1967, as they still fought in 1973. And altough we don't have to agree on the how Arab nationalism was formed (I don't think it was an anti-Ottoman movement, I think it was an anti-Colonialist movement), whether it would have existed or not in the absense of the State of Israel isn't really that important.

But lets assume it would have existed. Israel was not the cause of failure for Arab nationalism. If anything Israel is the only thing that made it last as long as it did! Look at the Arab League for example, all they do is fight and bicker about every little thing. They can never come to an agreement on anything substitive! ... well anything accept that Israel is evil - that they agree to ever year unanimously with no problem!

Israel is really a (the only?) unifying force for the Arabs.

quote:

In fact, you can see in the PLO's Covenant revised in 1968 the shift from relying on the Arab states to liberate Palestine to stating it is up to the Palestinians to liberate Palestine


That doesn't bear evidence that Israel caused the failure of the Arab National movement, all it brings evidence for is the claim that the Arab National movement died around this time (although I think much later... after the Yemen war)


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Old Post Mar-04-2005 16:25  Israel
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
y...o...u... a-g-r-e-e with me on something?



The 1973 war was defintely a Pan-Arab war inspired by nationalism. So you can't say Arab nationalism died because of the humiliation of 1967, as they still fought in 1973. And altough we don't have to agree on the how Arab nationalism was formed (I don't think it was an anti-Ottoman movement, I think it was an anti-Colonialist movement), whether it would have existed or not in the absense of the State of Israel isn't really that important.

But lets assume it would have existed. Israel was not the cause of failure for Arab nationalism. If anything Israel is the only thing that made it last as long as it did! Look at the Arab League for example, all they do is fight and bicker about every little thing. They can never come to an agreement on anything substitive! ... well anything accept that Israel is evil - that they agree to ever year unanimously with no problem!

Israel is really a (the only?) unifying force for the Arabs.



That doesn't bear evidence that Israel caused the failure of the Arab National movement, all it brings evidence for is the claim that the Arab National movement died around this time (although I think much later... after the Yemen war)

Well most sources I have seen say it was born out of the Ottoman Empire (if you have any sources that say otherwise can you let us know even if its just the title of a book) But anyway, Arab nationalism died because it did not deliver the goods (one factor was that it did not liberate Palestine from the Israelis and secondly, probably a greater factor, is that it didn't meet the expectations of the masses)

I agree that Israel is the main unifying force of the Arabs (but there are other things like culture and history but not as important)

You never know, if left to their own devices, they might have gone to war with each other, killed millios of them, and today, they might all be in the Arabian Union like the Europeans!

Old Post Mar-04-2005 17:53  England
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Well most sources I have seen say it was born out of the Ottoman Empire (if you have any sources that say otherwise can you let us know even if its just the title of a book)


I won't cite you to a specific source, but to most my knowledge on the subject the father of modern Arab nationalism was Egyptian 'President' Nasser, and you can read any biography on him - you will most likely have the origins of the Arab nationalism in there.


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Old Post Mar-04-2005 18:07  Israel
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igottaknow
PerfectTeeth R4 Dinosaurs



Registered: Feb 2001
Location: The Future

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
So, in summary, you cant say what would or would not have happened so there! ...I have a feeling we are gonna be treated to endless posts from pro-Israelis/anti-Arabs/Islam saying how nasty the middle east would be, and endless posts from anti-Israelis saying how nice the middle east would be so on second thoughts it might not be as interesting as I thought!!!)

i love could of would of predictions.

*hops into my time machine to prevent this thread from being created*

I'm staying out of another tiresome I/P debate

Old Post Mar-04-2005 18:37 
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JM
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Seattle, USA

yikes... i was thinking of a smart ass comment to say after seeing those pics, but i dont have one. just sad to have people blow themselves up, and kill other people in the process. what the fuck is this Muslim faith doing to these people???



>JM<

Old Post Mar-05-2005 02:18  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by JM
yikes... i was thinking of a smart ass comment to say after seeing those pics, but i dont have one. just sad to have people blow themselves up, and kill other people in the process. what the fuck is this Muslim faith doing to these people???



>JM<

nothing. fundamentalist nutjobs who use and manipulate ppl are.

Old Post Mar-05-2005 03:58  United States
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