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Originally posted by cybernetica First of all, I have to distinguish between goa and psytrance. Goa is the more melodic, arabic type whereas Psy is more rythm-driven, but of course contradictions are fluent.

Not always the case, you dont hear anyone in goa saying, "Lets go listen to goa". Its lets listen to psy - morning or night music.

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Fortuna Favet Fortibus.

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Originally posted by Derivative not quite true. psy kicks are typically very low end. they have this knocking kind of quality, basically where a low pass filter is run on it and filters out most of the highs so that the click is all upper mid range. when i make psy kicks i do so in soundforge using FM synthesis. generate a 60 hz sine wave. then pitch bend it with the slope going down. the slope determines the sound of the kick. more concave makes the kick sound more like a laser (i.e. in infected mushroom's devil) a more convex downward slope makes it sound more thudding, more in line with protoculture's avalon. most psy kicks tend to have a low pass filter on them too to bring out the knocking kind of quality. i often find that psy kicks are have much more low frequency presence because of this whereas typical trance kicks have much more of a slapping kind of sound which is all lower and and upper mid. the only thing thats lower is an 808 kick. and nobody every seems to use them for kicks anymore - they are mostly used by the likes of dillinja to make sub basslines. speaking of psy getting into a rut. seems like every full on psytrance act these days uses steinberg VB-1 for bass. cosma did it for practically every track on non stop and its now become a bit of a tradition. it does sound phat though. im in the process of trying to get psytrance out of this formulaic rut! how you say?! by cross breeding it with some other unlikely genre! hence, a 2 minute work in progress demo of the future of psytrance - downtempo psychedellic hardcore! all the goodness of psychedellic VB-1 crossed with muon tau acid crossed with pro-53 demo hoovers! it doesnt loop properly cuz the bastard keeps fading out and restarts every 10 minutes! so just ignore that bit!

Sweet, thats sounds pretty full on there. I like the start how your combining some epic leads with some nice psy basslines. I think that Tau is going to need some squeezing to fit it in though =)

I think one of the most important aspects of psy is the philosophy of the sound. Psy trance is more about creating alien and sometimes harsh sounds. Synths that sound like they are talking, overdriven, distorted or alluding to some dark ancient mystery. Conventional trance seems to aim for something that is more epic or timeless. Finely balanced pads and leads. It creates a memory of something beautiful and happy. When I listen to uplifting, I want to reach my hands into the air, when I listen to psy, I want to punch something.

I think theres a lot of room for convergence between melodic/epic trance and psy trance. Aside from a few fairly distinct differences in the melodies, they are fairly similar in percussion structure. Yet so much ground remains between them. Sometimes it spins me out.. these two forms of trance going in pretty different directions with little or no collaboration between the artists in them. M.I.K.E. Vs Asterix? I could only wish =(

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Oooo I love psy ... it just seems so complex I haven't tried producing any yet. This might be my motivation

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-tom

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Originally posted by Axolotyl I think one of the most important aspects of psy is the philosophy of the sound. Psy trance is more about creating alien and sometimes harsh sounds. Synths that sound like they are talking, overdriven, distorted or alluding to some dark ancient mystery. Conventional trance seems to aim for something that is more epic or timeless. Finely balanced pads and leads. It creates a memory of something beautiful and happy. When I listen to uplifting, I want to reach my hands into the air, when I listen to psy, I want to punch something.

I totaily agree with you. I feel the same thing

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I think theres a lot of room for convergence between melodic/epic trance and psy trance.

I don't agree with you on this point (but, would it be Yahel a good example for this?)
Euro-trance and psytrance are quite different things, exactly because the sounds have different philosophy behind them (as you said). It's possible to make psytrance more melodic, but not epic/uplifiting... it doesn't makes sense for me, just my opinion. For euro-trance is easier, you can mix with house, chill out etc. Progressive trance is an example.

Talking about kicks...
I think the actual psytrance's kick has a short sustain and decay when compared to euro-trance (or old Astral Projection work - GOA kick classic)... Long time ago, I posted this on Isratrance:
I understand that the cut-boost EQ procedure will depend of the sound you want, and of course, the nature of sound used for bass and kick. I think the better way for me is to use the 'Waves PAZ Analyzer' (or other spectrum analizer) and understand the spectrum of the bass and Kick, i.e. the place where the bass and kick stay and see (graphically) if they fight each other on some frequency. If they fight, so I will to separate these sounds using the 'Waves Q10' (or any other EQ tool will make the job as well) and the procedure CUT-BOOST. For example, the kick in Euro-Trance tracks (something like Lasgo, Ian Van Dahl etc.) stay on the 30-80 Hz range with a little presence around the 200 Hz and 3KHz area for the click of the kick (attack, transient). Experiment to see this as well. Ah, and the sub-bass is very important for them. A lot of club remixes have some boost around this range in order to make the people not only hear the kick, but feel them as well. Nowadays, psy-trance kicks don't have much bottom-end in the kick after the click, while some euro-trance kicks have a long sustain with sub-bass (it's common to put 3 or 4 kicks on layer, using a TR808 kick which has much bottom-end with others more EQing).
So, if you hear and see 'graphically' on PAZ Analyzer that your kick stays on 40-70Hz range (maybe with one peak on 60 Hz), you will cut some dB's from your bass exactly on this range too, and any other conflict area with the kick. They won't compete for the same range frequency anymore. Bass can stay on the 90-200 Hz range, but I would safely cut around the 250-1000 Hz range (the 250-800 Hz is called 'muddiness area' and they cause problems for the mixing step, mainly for bass and kick). My advice is: you should know exactly the sounds you came up with or are using (in the case of the samples, loops etc.). After that, apply cut or boosts in order to make your track more interesting (you know, there are two EQ school for EQing: 1. Less is more, i.e. boosts will make the sound 'artificial'; 2. Boosts in the creative way; i.e. don't worry about the boosts some freqs.) The most important thing is: you should worry about all of the instruments used on your track. The EQing step takes into consideration all instruments, so you should find spaces for each instrument used on your track.
In my actual opinion, the 20-125 Hz range should be only used by kick and bass, so I could put a High Pass Filter for other elements on the mix (a lot of people make that, including people from this forum). I could put the kick as the main actor below 100 Hz and the bass below 200-250 Hz, and some small boost on the 1-5 KHz for each one of them (what will depend of the sound to be created, of course). Rick Snoman wrote the Hit-Hat dominate the 8-12 KHz, so I have tried a boost of 3 dB around 9-12 KHz and cut around the 5 KHz . They sounds OK for me. Snare drums have a wide range of freq., so I use to put a HPF on 250 Hz or 500 Hz for it, but it depends (a small boost around 1-5 KHz can make the SD sounds better). Short bass and panning on the percussion elements can help your mix as well. EQ isn't your only tool for create a clear mix.
Ah, this EQ table can be very interesting:
http://www.computermusic.co.uk/tutorial/eq/2.asp

And this is very important: use a 'real' monitor in order to listen the EQ/compress modifications on your mix, not home speakers.

Last edited by sonic_akb on Mar-23-2005 at 15:18

trance seems to have branched off from psy. i maintain that psy tends to hold on to the original ethos of trance music - that is, a constant, seemless, hypnotic sound. it is meditative in that kind of sense. whereas commercial trance seems to be more about the build and the drop. build and drop.

i think commercial isratrance like infected mushroom and astrix arent really psy in the strictest sense of the word because they dont embrace that kind of ethos. infected mushroom's music is amazing but its too skatty. it breaks too often for it to be hypnotic trance.

now hallucinogen. wow. listen to hallucinogen's LSD and thats what i think of as psytrance. i think of protoculture's remix of nexus 6 - silicon sound as also psychedellic. it goes for long stretches where it is cosntant, enveloping sound. cosma's people on hold. thats my definition of psy. its on the record 'non stop' and it lives up to its name. it is constant. it never stops and it never lets up and you lose yourself in it.

i think hardcore shares some roots with psy coming from the early stages of hypnotic repetitive electronic music. alot of freeform has a simple off beat bass that is smothered with acid. the acid in hardcore acts like the bassline in psy - 1/16th note stabs. and it too is constant. the difference i see between the two is the speed and the energy. psy is more of in a inward, meditative experience to listen to both on the floor and in your home. hardcore is more of a release - like a constant spaz out.

i love both and id like to synergise elements of both into a new style of music. psychedellic hardcore. or freeform psychedelia. ive been trying to avoid the obvious term 'psycore' because it sounds totally shit. i appreciate this style is a bit of a genre straddler and at the moment as you mentioned with the psy type acid and so forth it doesnt always work although i think thats more a failing on my part to integrate the two properly. i was a bit too chuffed at having used mostly freeware plugs that i neglected to use the mighty AR bassline! i think given time and thought and patience i can make this work and blend the two styles more seemlessly. im thinking it should go faster - that tune is 140 bpm at the moment. for some reason slow music has 'something' which you dont get when you push the bpm up. the faster it goes the more energetic it gets. but it loses the swing. that lulling kind of rhythym. i want to retain that with hardcore aggression and freeform style euphoria which is deep, dark and forlorn.

Last edited by Derivative on Mar-23-2005 at 15:43

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Bass can stay on the 90-200 Hz range, but I would safely cut around the 250-1000 Hz range

thats too low to cut the bass in my opinion. if you run VB-1 and just pop in some 1/16th notes around c2 kind of range you'll notice its practically all bass and sub with a *very* prominant clicking sound which registers pretty high up. the top end of it on my track is around 9,000hz and then it tails off slowly. i found that if i cut it off much earlier than 8,000 or so hz it just lost alot of the vibe. that constant click is so necessary and you can hear it in like, all of cosma's basslines which i swear are practically all VB-1.

my psy kick drums as well are typically around the 50 to 120 hz range with the click much much higher. i use a low pass filter and close the cutoff until the click turns into a knock around the mid range frequencies. they are pretty low overall since i have to sit my basslines around it. the kick in my tunes tend to behave more like a harder duller bassnote so its just this constant 1/16th repetition.

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Originally posted by Derivative i think commercial isratrance like infected mushroom and astrix arent really psy in the strictest sense of the word because they dont embrace that kind of ethos. infected mushroom's music is amazing but its too skatty. it breaks too often for it to be hypnotic trance. Now hallucinogen. wow. listen to hallucinogen's LSD and thats what i think of as psytrance.

Yep, I agree with you. I like Bamboo Forest, Oforia, Sesto Sento as well.

Derivative, I liked so much your "epic" sound, very very good

alex keller.

thanks. its pretty rough around the edges but hopefully it'll get more refined in the coming months.

its nice to see some of the psychedellic underground posting around here. i wanna hear some more psy by you people!

we should all start to pioneer epic psy. or psychedellic house. that would be cool. psy euphoria? some psy tunes already have that euphoric kind of quality like the last track on wild life (alchemy records), fatali - city of god. oh my sweet jesus is that song beautiful. its like an epic trancer only where they chucked their jp 8000 and wrote it on a 303 instead.

Of course, mentioning there is a not-so-deep kick in Psy was stupid, I was referring to the often quite high knock it contains making it sound quite high.

A great kickdrum tutorial you can find here:
http://infected-mushroom.net/Studio...um_Tutorial.htm

Derivative: Interesting stuff. I also think that Freeform Hardcore and Psychedelic work quite well together - just listen to Alek Szahala and the likes

noooooooo. dont say someone has already done it before me?! shiit!

You dont post your new invention in an internet forum so that everyone can read it do ya?
Besides, well, Alek Szahala (and the so called Finrg scene) takes a lot of elements from Acid, Trance and Psychedelic and puts them into a hardcore-type sound... its not actually like Psytrance but has a similar "tripping"-factor. His new track "Dryad" plays with Goa-Elements.. you can have a look at his site... http://alek.szahala.com - i like that very much. But let me assure you, your stuff sounds different and unique nevertheless.