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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by kush paintings
As for the media negatively influencing males, I think you grossly underestimate just how much is embedded in your subconcious. You should really read some masculinity theories, they may shock you as you may finding them to be describing exactly how you act, as they do for me. The only problem is they always seem to go a step to far as suggesting men should become feminine rather that just better people (and the same can be said of women). I will discuss more later when I have more time.


I'm well aware of many of the popular masculinity theories being advanced within the domain of the so-called "social sciences," the most popular of which appears to be the notion of a "masculinity crisis."

However, I do not share your identification with the men described therein. They seem to be comsumed with a "need to be needed." I possess no such need, as independence ranks high among the virtues I advocate, nor am I particularly interesting in associating with those individuals who do not exhibit a similar independence. I believe that genuinely fulfilling social relationshiops can only exist between independent individuals, rather than the clumping together of people into groups of "friends" to compensate for their insecurities about personal worth. They typically exhibit anti-intellectual tendencies and celebrate the loudest and most obnoxious individuals among them - values which are almost diametrically opposite to mine. Furthermore, many of them seem to be frustrated with their perceived lack of power or influence over their environment especially in relation to women.

They often profess belief that women have an advantage over them in almost every sphere of their lives: personal relationships, career and educational opportunities. Sometimes they complain that women have the ability to advance themselves either by their aptitude, their appearence, or by a combination of the two, whereas men have only their aptitude to work with. In other cases, they espouse the idea that women hold a superior position in social and romantic relationships - suggesting that if they do not acquiesce to the demands and wishes of their significant other then she will simply find another man who will but not believing that they are in a position to make similar demands. I do not share these feelings at all. To me, they are nothing more than an indication of a weak man who has no idea how to make himself stronger.

In case it is not obvious, I not only do not relate to the men described in masculinity theories I've been exposed to, and in fact I actually have a rather large degree of contempt for them. To me, they are weak, disgraceful, and in many ways less-than-human. Not only do they not possess values similar to my own (I could respect that, even if I didn't like it) but they seem to possess no individual values at all, operating like lifeless automata programmed to perpetuate the wealth of the few.

My values are just that: my values. I didn't pull them out of some movie or some book, I didn't base it on the latest hot summer fashions or what some jackass celebrity said, and they aren't the product of some frivolous subconscious belief manifesting itself as an emotion. I believe in physical and mental strength - that one might overcome the greatest number of potential challenges. I believe in discipline, honor, indepedendence, and integrity - to keep one's strength properly focused and maintain good relationships with other strong individuals. I believe in a strong separation of cognitive and emotional functions and a controlled expression of emotion, because emotion, while valuable, is an inherently personal experience and should never be the basis for decisions about how one should act or what one should believe. To me these values are masculine because I am a male, however there is no reason a woman couldn't choose to live in accordance with similar beliefs, and I would encourage that so long as she came to hold those values by a process of critical rational analysis rather than simply accepting them as an article of faith.

I essentially agree with you: both men and women should become better people. But the notion of what constitutes "better" is where I strongly disagree with most of the sociological domga I've been exposed to, and I also disagree that it is a group phenomenon as opposed to a prevalent individual phenomenon. The solution to the "masculinity crisis" and to essentially every problem that sociology deals with is individualism but sociologists don't and never will want to hear it because in that case they're really nothing more than a poor man's psychologist (which is what I would classify them as anwyay, and I'm not even a big advocate of modern psychology.)

Old Post Apr-07-2005 09:56 
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by kush paintings
You should really read some masculinity theories, they may shock you as you may finding them to be describing exactly how you act, as they do for me. The only problem is they always seem to go a step to far as suggesting men should become feminine rather that just better people (and the same can be said of women).


I agree with that. Which, I think is part of the reason why many ppl, especially males, don't take psycology/psycologists seriously. They make alot of good observations but provide ridiculous solutions.

Old Post Apr-07-2005 10:24  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

Arbiter, I agree that independence is a good value to have but that does'nt mean that men don't have emotional needs. And having emotional needs doesn't mean you're not independent or weak. Having emotional needs is part of being human.

Old Post Apr-07-2005 10:43  United States
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Subey
Her Soul Mate



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: The corner where 'l' resolves into '<'

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Not all humans participate in collective interpertation, therefore participoating in collective interpertation is an individual choice.


The collective wants you to recoil in horror when you see the following picture...


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Old Post Apr-07-2005 14:25 
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Arbiter, I agree that independence is a good value to have but that does'nt mean that men don't have emotional needs. And having emotional needs doesn't mean you're not independent or weak. Having emotional needs is part of being human.


Emotions are good insofar as enhance and impassion life and its experiences, but when they reach the point of a need or dependence, then I say that it is a weakness and if that is indeed a part of our nature as humans then we should strive to overcome it, not meekly accept it.

quote:
'Why so hard?' the charcoal once said to the diamond; 'for are we not close relations?'
Why so soft? O my brothers, thus I ask you: for are you not - my brothers?
Why so soft, unresisting, and yielding? Why is there so much denial and abnegation in your hearts? So little fate in your glances?
And if you will not be fates, if you will not be inexorable: how can you - conquer with me?
For all creators are hard. And it must seem bliss to you to press your hand upon millennia as upon wax,
bliss to write upon the will of millennia as upon metal - harder than metal, nobler than metal. Only the noblest is perfectly hard.
This new law-table do I put over you, O my brothers: Become hard!


-Nietzsche

Old Post Apr-07-2005 14:47 
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by Subey
The collective wants you to recoil in horror when you see the following picture...




BHAWHAHAH !!! RECOIL! RECOIL!!! I'M RECOILEDD!!!


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SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

Old Post Apr-07-2005 15:39  Israel
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Dervish
Your opinion matters.



Registered: Dec 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Arbiter
Emotions are good insofar as enhance and impassion life and its experiences, but when they reach the point of a need or dependence, then I say that it is a weakness and if that is indeed a part of our nature as humans then we should strive to overcome it, not meekly accept it.



Ok a so are you saying that you don't need anyone else? I would say that no-one would like to live totally alone. Further if you live with or don't have any conntact people you don't connect to on some level (emotional?) you will have a very hard and lonely life. No man is an island and all that.

Also what fizzy drink do you drink the most and why?

My bet is on coca cola and the reason you buy it is because of the brand name imprinted on your mind via the media (lets be honest they are all just fizzy water with differnt flavourings and colourings not much difference), when was the last time you tried a new type of fizzy drink which you hadn't seen advertised when you could "just buy a coke".

Hence I think we are all affected by media it just depends on which media sources we tend to value (though pehaps this is a bit arse over tit and maybe we seek out media which conforms to our existing opions most?). In fact I think that given a list of which media (including books, which they openly choose and looking at trends rather than individual items) someone is exposed to you could work out their opinions on pretty much everything.


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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

Last edited by Dervish on Apr-08-2005 at 00:41

Old Post Apr-07-2005 22:01 
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sensorium
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location:

I was surprised when I read the title. Does it mean that the US is not a part of the world? Is the US of A another planet?

Every source other than yourself is certain to have an effect on you. Of course, you have to let it have an effect. So you have the choice.

A factor that should be payed attention to here is age. The younger generation is more influenced by the media. The older you get, the less likely you'll care about the interesting material the media provides on a daily basis. Of course the are exceptions. There are always exceptions.

So what negative influences is the thread starter talking about? I saw none. List examples becuase I'm too dumb to think of any or perhaps I'm too lazy to help out in this project of yours.


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Old Post Apr-08-2005 00:38  United States
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

All these films with sex scenes that seemingly last for hours dont do us any good too! As if anyone lasts for longer than three minutes! I'll get me coat...

Old Post Apr-08-2005 00:51  England
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kush paintings
Balance 005 Romantic



Registered: Jun 2004
Location:

Negative Influences of Masculine Image:
- Individualism (Before you jump down my neck, I am talking about having few male friends, breaking laws, etc.)
- Violence (Lower Life Expectency is a good proof)
- High Stress
- Most importantly: Fear

My paper will focus mainly on how fear drives males in how the consume, act, basically how they live. There is a quote from Marilyn Manson in Bowling For Columbine

"You're watching television, you're watching the news, you're being pumped full of fear, there's floods, there's AIDS, there's murder, cut to commercial, buy the Acura, buy the Colgate, if you have bad breath they're not going to talk to you, if you have pimples, the girl's not going to fuck you, and it's just this campaign of fear, and consumption, and that's what I think it's all based on, the whole idea of 'keep everyone afraid, and they'll consume."

Amazing commentary in my opinion. As Arbiter pointed out, however, you can ignore the media, filter out what is being fed to you. This is fine, but this does nothing to combat the fact that in your most fragile years before you know any better images of masculinity are absorbed by your preceptions of television and every day living, and they are embedded in your subconcious, making them far harder to recognize as social constructions (as with you filtering out images currently). You believe these to be your own beliefs, your own values, but really they are those of societies. Your concept of masculinity although may not exactly parrallel our societie's construct of masculinity, it is based around this construct. This process is natural of course, as the transmission of social constructs and norms is what separates us from monkeys. To me, this transmission (masculinity in your subconcious) is obvious, and if this true then you examine the masculine image our society portrays and critique it to decide wether or not it is hurting the male population.


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Lost Souls

Old Post Apr-08-2005 02:36  United States
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zig
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Dublin,Ireland

Well perhaps you can go back to the start and wonder why your mother didnt put you in a dress as a little boy........

Old Post Apr-08-2005 03:05  Ireland
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Dervish
Ok a so are you saying that you don't need anyone else? I would say that no-one would like to live totally alone. Further if you live with or don't have any conntact people you don't connect to on some level (emotional?) you will have a very hard and lonely life. No man is an island and all that.


That is corred, I don't need anyone else. Human social relationships are highly desirable in that they open up a large amount of opportunities for satisfying experiences. However if I were to remove myself from my social relationships, there would be no particularly catastrophic consequences. Therefore, it would be appropriate to categorize it as a "want" rather than a "need."

quote:
Also what fizzy drink do you drink the most and why?

My bet is on coca cola and the reason you buy it is because of the brand name imprinted on your mind via the media (lets be honest they are all just fizzy water with differnt flavourings and colourings not much difference), when was the last time you tried a new type of fizzy drink which you hadn't seen advertised when you could "just buy a coke".

Hence I think we are all affected by media it just depends on which media sources we tend to value (though pehaps this is a bit arse over tit and maybe we seek out media which conforms to our existing opions most?). In fact I think that given a list of which media (including books, which they openly choose and looking at trends rather than individual items) someone is exposed to you could work out their opinions on pretty much everything.


Probably Wild Cherry Pepsi, but they recently changed their formula and I don't think it was for the better. I've tasted every non-diet carbonated beverage available in my area, including the generic store brands of all nearby grocery stores and created a purchase rotation of the highest quality among them in order to create a strong balance between quality and variety.

I'm not the kind of impulsive buyer that their simple-minded advertising schemes appeal to. Every single purchase I make, no matter how inane, is the result of careful rational analysis.

Old Post Apr-08-2005 07:56 
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