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Originally posted by MarkT see ya! I actually laughed out loud when I read an article this week where Harper and the Conservative Alliance said that they won't bring down the gov't "for now". While they in fact could bring down the gov't, I suspect that the real reasons they dare not are: 1. the very real, very legitimate fear on their part that the Liberals would still win an election if it was called right now...in fact they'd probably have a larger margin of victory than they did last time. 2. the public backlash that would result against the Cons. for bringing down the gov't. They'd be perceived, no matter how they spin it IMHO, in a negative light for doing so. Harper will never be PM...you can quote me on that. He's done nothing to improve his party's chances in the next election, whether now or years from now. Quebec will still never support that party, despite the time and effort they've put in there. Martin is front and centre, enjoying popularity. Rightly or wrongly, most Canadians just don't care THAT much about the scandal. I suppose there's some sort of acceptance that every administation is "corrupt" to some extent and behaves in a somewhat similar manner. The Liberals got caught. To suggest that they are any more "evil" or underhanded is to be incredibly naive...

OMG...it's like you read my mind

Your starting to freak me out dood

Seriously I'm 100% sure that if the tables were turned jayx1 would be saying absolutely nothing about it on the TA board.

Though I'll admit, I am very disappointed that this shit went down. It's dahem embarrassing that we gotta get stiffed outta our own $$$$
The way I see it...what goes around comes around
The corrupt ones will pay, eventually
I hope

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Peace, Unity, Luv and Havin Fun!!

"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character."- Ralph Waldo Emerson, US essayist & poet (1803 - 1882)

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Originally posted by loca Wow i can't believe you just said that.... The Liberals got caught, and they need to understand that they just cannot get away with things like that without being severely punished because of it! The way you're putting things is like saying all they need is a reprimand, perhaps a slight slap on the hand, and please, go on with your business as usual!

Loca I don't think that Canadian's aren't going to severely punish the Liberals. That's why we got opposition to look after that here. Let's face it...our system isn't perfect but it's way better than other countries. Atleast this was discovered. In other countries...the corruption is worse. But don't kid yourself....the Conservatives would have done the same thing cuz they are equally as corrupt.

quote:

How could you possibly condone a behaviour like that?! While i'm not much into politics myself (nor are the people i live with), i still feel that this is a very big deal. We are not living in a third world country! Look at places like Africa where things like this happen all the time, and look at the situation they are in. They are 3rd World for a reason, corrupt governments and politicians are what have made them (and still make them) this way. Canada is far from being third world but by God, it certainly seems like some sort of regression is going on here.

No regression babes...just the reality coming out

Oh...how ignorance surely is like bliss

___________________
Peace, Unity, Luv and Havin Fun!!

"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character."- Ralph Waldo Emerson, US essayist & poet (1803 - 1882)

quote:

Originally posted by b4k-oz Let's face it...our system isn't perfect but it's way better than other countries. Atleast this was discovered.

You've bought into the Canada myth. The fact is that the system DOESN'T work, otherwise this corruption wouldn't have happened in the first place. We need a whole new constitution.

quote:

In other countries...the corruption is worse.

So we're better than Belarus but not as good as Mexico... fantastic arguement there bud!

As Canadians, we deserve better!

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But don't kid yourself....the Conservatives would have done the same thing cuz they are equally as corrupt.

Ugh no, the CPC doesn't come out of the Quebec old boys network like the Lieberals do. One reason why it wouldn't happen in the CPC is that the Alliance and Reform before it hardly took any corporate money... it almost all came from individuals. Also, they don't have the same Lieberal policy of buying off regions of the country, and especially appeasing Quebec.

You're letting your idealogical bias blind you. This isn't about Left versus right. The fact is, this would NOT have happened with the NDP, the Greens, the CPC, or the other political parties in power. This sort of corruption is endemic to the Lieberals - the PRI of Canada.

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No regression babes...just the reality coming out Oh...how ignorance surely is like bliss

Instead of being condescending to her, you should listen to her arguement... you might learn something.

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Nathan Fake - Outhouse (Valentino Kanzyani Remix) || ID PLZ! PVD ID!!!
Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

You guys constantly blather on and on, Harping consistently on the same points and never have anything fresh or constructive to add. If I wanted to hear a broken record, I'd go play with the old Bristole phonograph I have in the basement.

Jay and Shadow are wrong. We don't need a new government, we need a new way to govern. Give the reigns of the country to any other political party and they have exactly the same amount of freedom to conduct unsavoury activities as their predecessors. To err is to be human... It matters not how honest a politician or their administration is, to err is human.

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Originally posted by amb_ We need democratic reform. Our system of government has not changed in almost 200 years, whereas the system it was loosely based upon (British constitutional monarchy/parliamentary democracy) has evolved in this time. We need further checks and balances as far as accountability goes (à la British "permanent secretaries" - more power/independence for the civil service), more relevant (proportional - more MPs) representation in parliament, etc. etc. The choices as they stand are not the issue, it's how they are being applied that is the crux of the issue.

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Originally posted by amb_ Unfortunately real democratic reform (changes to representation, constitution, distribution of executive powers) can only happen when all parties represented in government can agree to the changes. This is not a question with who holds control in parliament but is a question of a leader who can instill non-partisan co-operation across the board. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I honestly don't think there's any political figure in the current landscape that offers that sort of possibility. If I'm wrong in this assertion, I would love to hear why...

Reference (link)

I never heard a peep from either of the two 'proponents for change' as to why I might be wrong. I'm still waiting for some original thought...

I won't hold my breath.

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"That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it." -- Aristotle

quote:

Originally posted by amb_ You guys constantly blather on and on, Harping consistently on the same points and never have anything fresh or constructive to add. If I wanted to hear a broken record, I'd go play with the old Bristole phonograph I have in the basement. Jay and Shadow are wrong. We don't need a new government, we need a new way to govern. Give the reigns of the country to any other political party and they have exactly the same amount of freedom to conduct unsavoury activities as their predecessors. To err is to be human... It matters not how honest a politician or their administration is, to err is human. Reference (link) I never heard a peep from either of the two 'proponents for change' as to why I might be wrong. I'm still waiting for some original thought... I won't hold my breath.

You're right in that we do need reform. The thing is, you won't get reform from the Lieberals. The other major parties all have policies dealing with the issues you mentioned. BUT THEY CAN'T BE ENACTED WITHOUT A NEW GOVERNMENT IN PLACE!!!! The Lieberals had 12 years to change things, and they just made things worse (just look at the most recent Senate appointments).

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Nathan Fake - Outhouse (Valentino Kanzyani Remix) || ID PLZ! PVD ID!!!
Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf You're right in that we do need reform. The thing is, you won't get reform from the Lieberals. The other major parties all have policies dealing with the issues you mentioned. BUT THEY CAN'T BE ENACTED WITHOUT A NEW GOVERNMENT IN PLACE!!!! The Lieberals had 12 years to change things, and they just made things worse (just look at the most recent Senate appointments).

Meaningful reform is never going to see the light of day without a government that can work arduously towards building a consensus across the lines of all parties brought to power by the Canadian electorate. Nowhere do I see a party in sight that has the potential to take on this task. That is exactly what I'm alluding to when I say co-operation is the order of the day...

Where is the alternative?

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"That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it." -- Aristotle

Did you guys happen to catch The Hour tonight? They did a quick survey on how many people outside of Quebec know about the Gomery Inquiry. And WOW...with this type of ignorance, the Liberals don't have to worry about anything. They could start another holocaust and Canadians would let them get away with it.

quote:

Originally posted by amb_ Meaningful reform is never going to see the light of day without a government that can work arduously towards building a consensus across the lines of all parties brought to power by the Canadian electorate. Nowhere do I see a party in sight that has the potential to take on this task. That is exactly what I'm alluding to when I say co-operation is the order of the day...

BC and now Ontario have Citizen's Assemblies.

http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/...5/07/c1881.html


The other parties have some excellent policies:

http://www.conservative.ca/document...DECLARATION.pdf
^^^
Notice the checks and balances put into place.


http://www.greenparty.ca/platform20...icies.php?p=229
http://www.greenparty.ca/platform20...icies.php?p=226

http://ndp.ca/issues/

http://www.freedomparty.ca/htm/en/policies.htm#11


Another option is to have a government of national unity, with members of all the opposition parties. The mandate of that government could be stricly limited to cleaning things up after the Lieberals. Currently in Israel, there's a Likud-Labour coalition, even though they have very different views on many issues. In fact, we don't need an election to achieve that - the Governer-General could set up such a government today. The CPC, NDP, and Bloc have worked very well together, and could join with the few principled Liberal MP's.

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Nathan Fake - Outhouse (Valentino Kanzyani Remix) || ID PLZ! PVD ID!!!
Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

^^

One can only hope so

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf BC and now Ontario have Citizen's Assemblies. http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/public http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/...5/07/c1881.html

I fail to see how this is anything more than a show. In my opinion, far too little, too late.

quote:

The other parties have some excellent policies: http://www.conservative.ca/document...DECLARATION.pdf ^^^ Notice the checks and balances put into place. http://www.greenparty.ca/platform20...icies.php?p=229 http://www.greenparty.ca/platform20...icies.php?p=226 http://ndp.ca/issues/ http://www.freedomparty.ca/htm/en/policies.htm#11

Sorry, I still don't see a leader on any of those sites who has the finesse and savoir-faire to bring about a climate where such revolutionary changes can be forged...

quote:

Another option is to have a government of national unity, with members of all the opposition parties. The mandate of that government could be stricly limited to cleaning things up after the Lieberals. Currently in Israel, there's a Likud-Labour coalition, even though they have very different views on many issues. In fact, we don't need an election to achieve that - the Governer-General could set up such a government today. The CPC, NDP, and Bloc have worked very well together, and could join with the few principled Liberal MP's.

That is more along the lines of what realistically needs to happen. The burning question: who will lead?

Will Mme. Adrienne Clarkson step up to the regal plate and with a flourish, exude such a presence of unification that the Viscount Monck would be proud?

I guess one can dream.

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"That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it." -- Aristotle

quote:

Originally posted by Crazy Serb he did say "most Canadians"... and nowhere did he say that is his own "philosophy" either. and I have to agree with him - most Canadians are way too busy with their lives to even think about the government and scandals/corruptions that happen within it. Hell, most of us are trying to stay away from gov't as much as possible...

that's exactly what I'm saying. Most people just don't care...at least not enough to vote them out.

*Of course* I'm not dismissing the sponsorship scandal...these are officials who's duty is to act in the best interests of the people...not line the pockets of their buddies.

obviously the details need to come out...and there should be consequences...but what I'd *really* like to see come of this is the development of a system of safeguards and checks so that the current administration, and those that will follow, can't so easily do it again.