quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley When "Europe" is refered to it means the EU, and in that case I dont think the EU has been guilty of an attrocities to anyone (in fact it hasn't full stop) Your falling into the same trap as the Israelis by attempting to portray the EU as if it were Nazi Germany...

Point taken. But it's still kind of hard to completely disregard the history of the nations that make up the EU. I guess I should be more optimistic in this case though.

EDIT: I'd also imagine that there would be a more balance of power within the EU so EU it is I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Point taken. But it's still kind of hard to completely disregard the history of the nations that make up the EU. I guess I should be more optimistic in this case though. EDIT: I'd also imagine that there would be a more balance of power within the EU so EU it is I guess.

I'm also a little hesitent to buy into the whole "if the EU had as much power as the US they'd be just as bad" cos you have to realise that the EU (and Europeans in general) have a completely different ideology to America. Europe is very much influenced by socialism and even if the economic side of socialism seems to have been replaced by capitalism, the political side is still there. America (government + a sizable portion of society) is very right wing and religious and this shows in the foreign policy. The EU (and Europe) simply does not have these cultural factors influencing foerign policy so even if we did have as much power, I think it would be used very differently

totally off topic but for some reason i'm more curious now that before about the whole England/Ireland issue, could you (GeorgeSmiley) and Zig direct me to a link or something? And, if there's some book that you could recommend, I wouldn't mind looking into that eigther.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z totally off topic but for some reason i'm more curious now that before about the whole England/Ireland issue, could you (GeorgeSmiley) and Zig direct me to a link or something? And, if there's some book that you could recommend, I wouldn't mind looking into that eigther.

Basically they blame us cos their potatoes didn't grow one year so the IRA started bombing the mainland so we sent in the boys to sort em out...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Basically they blame us cos their potatoes didn't grow one year so the IRA started bombing the mainland so we sent in the boys to sort em out...

Of course, that is the very simplified version!

Nah only kiddin thats just the piss takin version. I'll have a look around for you but until then here's a little version from me (Zig will probably know more about the earlier stuff and exact dates as I assume that would be studied in depth at Irish schools?)

Anyway, England conquers Ireland some time (probly round Braveheart's era!) All the landowners are English protestants. In an effort in the 1800s to give protestants more influence (Ireland = Catholic) England ships a load of protestants from Scotland and they settle in the northern area of Ireland (which is where the Northern Irish get their distinct accents from) Anyway, the Irish obviously dont like being ruled by the British so they revolt or sod off to America (Ireland is the only country in this period to see its population actually decrease) Ireland declares independence in 1916 (and despite being neutral in both wars somehow manage to leave their lights on so the German bombers can get their barings to bomb Britain!!) but Britain keeps the Northern protestant areas (and does so today) Approx 45% of people in Northern Ireland are catholic and wish to be part of Ireland, the remainder wish to remain British (the protestants)* So in the 1970s the situation gets a bit tits up and we send in the army to help! Basically the army takes the protestant side, does a bit of the old oppression and shoots many people Bloody Sunday being the most imfamous event. So the UK gets bombed loads by the IRA, the UVF etc go to war with the IRA, loads of people die so Labour came in wanting to resolve the conflict (as did Clinton and Albright who must take a hell of a lot of the credit) and today things are a lot calmer. The mainland hasn't been bombed since 1996 (altho following the Omagh tragedy and following 9/11 the IRA's tactics have become unpopular form of "resistance") also there is less of a need for catholics (nationalists) to protest as they are free and have exactly the same lives as protestants so reunification is now purely symbolic (ie its not gonna change their lives for the better and if you ask me (and probly Zig!) it would make it worse) (should point out the RUC (the police force) is currently being reformed due to discrimination against catholoics) Still a long way to go and the Loyalists seem to be more interested in fightin themselves!

However, I'm sure Zig will know more than me (who as you may guess knows pretty much sod all!!! UK politics have never interested me I've always been more interested in International affairs so thats kind of my strength whereas I know next to nothing about my own country!!)





*speaking very very very generally - I'm sure there are catholics happy to remain British and prtestants that would like a reunited Ireland)

Last edited by George Smiley on Apr-10-2005 at 13:45

that was still funny though

I had an acquaintance who was of Irish descent but he was basically American eventhough he loves to consider himself Irish and is really proud of his Irish passport. I think (yikes) that he was an IRA member, definetly a supporter as he had this IRA poster with a portrait of some leader dude. The way he put it, it seems that Britain should leave Ireland alone. I didn't just take his word for it ofcourse, which is why I'm asking both you and Zig. He obviously had an anti-England bias on the issue. I'm looking forward to a good place to start on finding out more about the whole situation.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z that was still funny though I had an acquaintance who was of Irish descent but he was basically American eventhough he loves to consider himself Irish and is really proud of his Irish passport. I think (yikes) that he was an IRA member, definetly a supporter as he had this IRA poster with a portrait of some leader dude. The way he put it, it seems that Britain should leave Ireland alone. I didn't just take his word for it ofcourse, which is why I'm asking both you and Zig. He obviously had an anti-England bias on the issue. I'm looking forward to a good place to start on finding out more about the whole situation.

(See edited version!)

Basically there is a phenomena that states the further away you are from a conflict that affects you (sybolically or ethnically for example) the more radical your views are. That explains why Irish Americans love tp support the IRA so much and the same with Jews and Israel. They aren't there. They dont understand whats going on there. I've had this debate with Americans before and they simply cannot fathom what Nothern Ireland is! I told them there is 55% protestant and they dont believe! I ask them what they think the Loyalist paramilitaries will do if Ireland is reunited (they'll bomb Dublin thats what they'll do!) but they haven't even heard of them! They think the (Northern) Irish are oppressed as if they are ruled by Saddam or summat but my previous uni must have had the highest concentration of Northern Irish people outside of Ireland (it was in Liverpool and not particularly hard to get into!! ) and none of em seemed oppressed to me!! They need to understand that there is not one difference between rights and oppertunities between me and every person in Northern Ireland.

Oh yea...and here is what every single person in Ireland looks like...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Anyway, England conquers Ireland some time

was it not Britian? Cos one of my family (not current you understand) was one of Cromwells lieutenants. (one a side note his brother was one of the high up ministers in Edinburgh castle when they took it, brother Vs. brother)

I'll just quote it so it's right...

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His eldest son James became known as James Traill of Tullochin, a strong supporter of the Parliamentary army. ... Afterwards perhaps from his connection with Lord Brooke who was a general in the Parliamentary Army and was killed at Lichfield in 1642) he entered the Parliamentary forces, and rose to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. He was much esteemed by Cromwell as a brave and skilful officer. (Oliver Cromwell said of him "If only I had 10,000 James Traills, I would drive the Pope out of Italy".) It is known that many of the Parliamentary Army were given land grants to make up for arrears in salary. It appears that he may have already been a soldier of the occupation forces when he married Mary Hamilton on 21st March, 1646 being the Sabbath day in Ireland. Mary was the daughter of John Hamilton of Hamilton Bawn or Baune, County Armagh, brother of the Rt. Hon. Viscount Claudeboy ... * 1641 AD The native Irish assisted by the Hiberno-English rose in rebellion and attacked the settlements of Anglicans and Presbyterians. They drowned, murdered, and burned alive, men, women and children. While the stories say that they killed 200,000 people, this is probably grossly overestimated. * 1642 AD Owen Roe O'Neill returns from Spain and forms his 'Catholic Army of Ulster'. A battle is fought at Battletown outside Comber, where Viscount Montgomery and his forces repel the rebels. No further action takes place in North Down. * 1646 AD The Catholic Army of Ulster defeats the English at Benburb. * 1649 AD Oliver Cromwell lands in Dublin. With Irish resistance on the wane he takes Drogheda by storm and then Wexford. He found on entry that the local protestants had been tortured and massacred, not only by the locals but also by the English garrisons. He gave no quarter and put to death 2600 in Drogheda and 2000 in Wexford. James was in Edinburgh when Cromwell took the castle in 1650, and it was due to Cromwell’s knowledge of James that Robert was treated well. .At Sometime in the 1650s James no doubt as many other volunteer soldiers did who had fought for Cromwell, received land in lieu of his back pay and this land near Killyleagh he named Tullochin.. The last portion of this property was sold in 1770, by his grt gramdson, the Rev. Hamilton Trail, who died in 1795, aged 75.

I think they sold the land after a bit though. Plus that tea leaf bitch Cromwell nicked the mister brothers stuff....

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When Cromwell came to Edinburgh, he showed kindness to Robert who was in the castle, when it was taken, on his brother’s account, and told him that he would be glad of an opportunity of serving him, to which the Rev. Robert replied that Oliver Cromwell had been persecuting the people of God in Ireland and was now come to do so in Scotland, and that he (Robert) desired none of his favours. Cromwell said "God forbid that he should ever persecute the people of God anywhere and ordered Robert Trails effects to be brought carefully out of the castle and carried to his own house

Sorry for the monstor post but I think it has a fair bit of detail in it and is right (rather than my usual foggy half guessing).

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Last edited by Dervish on Apr-10-2005 at 14:45

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Basically there is a phenomena that states the further away you are from a conflict that affects you (sybolically or ethnically for example) the more radical your views are. That explains why Irish Americans love tp support the IRA so much and the same with Jews and Israel.

You forgot to throw in; "and the Europeans and Arabs"

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus You forgot to throw in; "and the Europeans and Arabs"

ok, you're going to have to elaborate on that one.