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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Jayx I think what you're seeing here is the general distrust toward the Conservatives in this Province, particullarly amongst this demographic far outweighs the current scandal. I'm not saying that there is reason to fear the Conservatives, nor am I saying that this is true of all Ontario voters. Seriously, you have to recognize that within the group of persons that post on this site and who are part of the EDM community in general rightward leaning views are the minority. Bareing that in mind you have to expect that for the most part people here will support the centre or left despite any one off scandals which are widely believed to be present in all governments regardless of political orientation. Additionally, you cannot really tell me or anyone else that you honestly believe that a Conservative government would be free of scandal. There is patranage present in all political systems and within all parties. Moreover, you're talking about a party that started as a grassroots party and has had only limited success for 15 years. They owe their grassroots members and those members will be certain that they get what they feel they deserve, otherwise they'll withdraw their support and the party will faulter... the party leadership knows this, you should too.

Im not saying that the next government will be scandal free. However the scale that this scandal is on is unprecidented. Never has so much money been stolen and i cant remember a time when it was proven that money was stolen to finance a party's own election campaign. No wonder they won!!

If the conservatives were to get caught in a major scandal like this id be against them too. But to throw your hands in the air and vote Liberal just because you think that the next guys would do the same thing is ludicris. Apply this logic to any other criminal case and we would have anarchy.

"whats the point of putting this convicted murderer in jail since someone else will just murder anyways"

Seriously, think about what you are saying here.

If ideology really has to win out over practicality and common sense then i urge you to at least decline the ballot. I urge you to do the same if you dont like any of the parties as well.

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Embezzling funds through friends to finance an election is not only criminal but curtails the very basis of our country which is supposed to be a democracy.

Point of order Mr. Speaker.... Canada is not now nor has ever been a democracy. It is a constitutional monarchy whereby the ruling monarch takes direction from the people, however, they ultimately have the final decision. Her Majesty, or in her absence (which is nearly eternal) the governer general, could over-rule the people at any point she so chose. I refer you to the King-Bing affair.

Number two, please to explain why the Liberal Party of Lower Canada incured millions in debt and remains in debt following the election if they had embezzled so much money to finance an election. No one has tendered any reasons for this.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Point of order Mr. Speaker.... Canada is not now nor has ever been a democracy. It is a constitutional monarchy whereby the ruling monarch takes direction from the people, however, they ultimately have the final decision. Her Majesty, or in her absence (which is nearly eternal) the governer general, could over-rule the people at any point she so chose. I refer you to the King-Bing affair. Number two, please to explain why the Liberal Party of Lower Canada incured millions in debt and remains in debt following the election if they had embezzled so much money to finance an election. No one has tendered any reasons for this.

That just shows you how much money they spent on the election. I remember too even in the last election that there were 10 times more liberal ads than all other parties combined. At the time i wondered how they could afford this (i figured it was corperate donations). Now I know how.

TECHNICALLY we are not called a democracy. But id love to see what would happen if clarkson over ruled a parliamentary decision. We'd be a republic in no time (then again in this passionless country wed probably just vote her in as PM)

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by Jayx1 If Canadians allow these guys to get away with all this corruption then it will send the message to all Liberals, Conservatives, NDP, etc that they can all get away with this sort of thing (or more) in the future.

Yea, its not really about who's agenda fits my views the most now...The Liberals have to go, and that's that. Canadians have to show all present and future parties that they won't put up with corruption. Voting Liberal will basically tell'em "do whatever the fuck you want! I'm still voting for you!"

Last edited by infinity HiGH on Apr-13-2005 at 14:00

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Im not saying that the next government will be scandal free. However the scale that this scandal is on is unprecidented. Never has so much money been stolen and i cant remember a time when it was proven that money was stolen to finance a party's own election campaign. No wonder they won!! If the conservatives were to get caught in a major scandal like this id be against them too. But to throw your hands in the air and vote Liberal just because you think that the next guys would do the same thing is ludicris. Apply this logic to any other criminal case and we would have anarchy. "whats the point of putting this convicted murderer in jail since someone else will just murder anyways" Seriously, think about what you are saying here. If ideology really has to win out over practicality and common sense then i urge you to at least decline the ballot. I urge you to do the same if you dont like any of the parties as well.

Number 1 - ideology always wins out over practicality as people are more personally invested in their ideological position then they are any current circumstance

Number 2 - most of those who supported the Liberal Party in the past will likely vote for them again here despite any potential disapproval of their actions because their ideological position tells them that they cannot allow the Conservatives an opportunity to rule.

Number 3 - please refrain from telling people on what basis they should decide who to support. I understand that your place a high priority on accountability and view this scandal as reprehensible. Other people may have differing priorities and may not see this scandal as being worth changing the present government or policy direction.

Number 4 - I'm not saying that people's apathy with regard to scandal is right or justified, I am mearly pointing out that this is something that the Conservative party needs to deal with.

Number 5 - for the record, I was once a member of the Liberal Party of Canada (in fact I was the executive VP of a riding association and attended several party conventions). I no longer am a member because my ideological views have changed. Unfortunately, there is no fascist party in Canada so I vote based on whichever party can best balance economic responsibility with social wellfare.

BTW, I respect your opinion and your attempt to sway people to your side, however, be aware that this is a poor avenue for you to seek support and structure your attempts accordingly.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Wow, what an intelligent post. I must say, I'm quite impressed. It's always good to see someone structure their argument so throughly.

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Number 2 - most of those who supported the Liberal Party in the past will likely vote for them again here despite any potential disapproval of their actions because their ideological position tells them that they cannot allow the Conservatives an opportunity to rule.

Exactly my point as well. These are ideas we are dealing with. It's not as if people will revote for the "just because". Even if they disagree with some aspects of their ideology, conflicting interests with other parties will be a good basis to revote this party in. Scandal or not, what they represent is still something to be considered and weighed over the representations of other groups.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 If you don't like any other party then i urge you to decline your vote.

This idea is stupid.
So what you're saying is don't be partisan, but just don't vote for the liberals'?

Sounds like last november's campaign against the republicans, 'anybody but bush', and we all know how that worked out.

Seriously, there is A LOT of corruption in politics, and the Liberals just got caught this time.

I don't know who I'm going to vote for, but more thought goes into my vote than who had the most recent scandal. To me it's more a balancing act on what this scandal does to hurt them vs what they've done for me while in power. And there's no way I'm going to throw away my only say in the policies of my federal government just because the party that matches best up with my ideological beliefs has had a scandal. It just means I'll look closer at my vote making process.

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Not Everyone Understands House Music, It's a Spiritual Thing, a Body Thing, a Soul Thing

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard BTW, I respect your opinion and your attempt to sway people to your side, however, be aware that this is a poor avenue for you to seek support and structure your attempts accordingly.

"my side" is not a particular party. "My side" is what is right and just. "My side" is punishment for those who have wronged us. That is why i urge people to vote for any other party but the one that has stolen from us and curtailed democracy.

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by zokissima Wow, what an intelligent post. I must say, I'm quite impressed. It's always good to see someone structure their argument so throughly.

Many thanks. Four years of Political Science has taught me how to argue quite effectively.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Jayx1 "my side" is not a particular party. "My side" is what is right and just. "My side" is punishment for those who have wronged us. That is why i urge people to vote for any other party but the one that has stolen from us and curtailed democracy.

by your side I was refering to your position not political affiliation. Your response seems to suggest that you believe I meant the opposite.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Sly_Guy So what you're saying is don't be partisan, but just don't vote for the liberals'?

Yes. Im saying don't vote for the party that has ripped us all off. That's not a stupid idea at all.

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Sounds like last november's campaign against the republicans, 'anybody but bush', and we all know how that worked out.

Except that we have many more choices than just one.

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Seriously, there is A LOT of corruption in politics, and the Liberals just got caught this time.

and those that get caught should get punished. I agin refer you to my murderer example.

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I don't know who I'm going to vote for, but more thought goes into my vote than who had the most recent scandal. To me it's more a balancing act on what this scandal does to hurt them vs what they've done for me while in power. And there's no way I'm going to throw away my only say in the policies of my federal government just because the party that matches best up with my ideological beliefs has had a scandal. It just means I'll look closer at my vote making process.

its not just any scandal. Its criminal embezzlement and election buying. But it's always a good idea to look closely at your vote making process no matter what the issues are.

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill