quote:

Originally posted by malek he quoted for Quebec, where the average income per person is around 31k (80% make less than 33K or so). For households its different.

Well if you include newfoundland and rural areas like sask i can see how they would pull down the national average. But im willing to bet that the average in ontario and quebec is around 50 k.

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Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Well if you include newfoundland and rural areas like sask i can see how they would pull down the national average. But im willing to bet that the average in ontario and quebec is around 50 k.

50k for what? households?

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quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Well if you include newfoundland and rural areas like sask i can see how they would pull down the national average. But im willing to bet that the average in ontario and quebec is around 50 k.

In Ontario, the overall average is 35.2K (male and female combined). Only those with university degrees make on average 53.5K.

For Toronto specifically, the overall average is 38.6K (university degrees are 56.3K).

(And for reference, in Ontario, the number of people with a Bachelor's degree or higher is about 17.5%).

quote:

Originally posted by baystreetboi In Ontario, the overall average is 35.2K (male and female combined). Only those with university degrees make on average 53.5K. For Toronto specifically, the overall average is 38.6K (university degrees are 56.3K). (And for reference, in Ontario, the number of people with a Bachelor's degree or higher is about 17.5%).

source please

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quote:

Originally posted by malek source please

Same as before... StatsCan 2001 Census: http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labour.htm#ear

Just have to do a little digging around in the various catagories / drop-down boxes to pull the data you want.

quote:

Originally posted by baystreetboi Same as before... StatsCan 2001 Census: http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labour.htm#ear Just have to do a little digging around in the various catagories / drop-down boxes to pull the data you want.

edit: found it

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Originally posted by Mike_B the rich pay more and the poor pay less it the US for education that's a load of crap you mean, the rich pay more and go to harvard while the poor pay less and go to the mizourri state college or some crap like that

It's absolutely true that the rich pay more than the poor for college tuition. You have no clue how much financial aid there is at both the state and federal level.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...tudents?mode=PF
http://www.hesc.com/bulletin.nsf/
http://www.students.gov/STUGOVWebApp/index.jsp



The other thing is: you're comparing apples to oranges. Canada, with a couple of exceptions (McGill) only has the equivalent of state schools in the U.S. In fact, U.S. state schools are superior to their Canadian equivalents by almost every measure.

Plus, Canada doesn't have Harvards, MIT's, Stanfords, etc.

quote:

in the states the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor

Actually that's Canada. There's a lot more social mobility in the U.S. Canada is run by a few rich families - the Thompsons, Westons, McCains, Irvings, Aspers, etc. In the U.S., there are more rags-to-riches types - think of the founders of Google for example.

quote:

same with the health care they may have more doctors but odds of everyone being able to afford one is not likely

It's becoming really difficult to see a doctor in Canada, especially in rural areas.

How much do you think Americans pay? A supplemental plan including drugs is about $1,600 U.S. per year, or $2,000 CDN. Medicare and Medicaid are also available, plus various state plans (Child Care Plus, etc. in NY).

edit: I should note that the equivalent supplemental coverage in Canada is about $500 per year, because OHIP doesn't cover everything, including dental. So basically we pay all those extra taxes, including health levies, only to save about $1,500 per year FOR LESS/WORSE SERVICE.

quote:

sure you save money it taxes so long as you stay in good heath

Individuals pay MORE for health in Canada through taxes for LESS service.

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Last edited by ShadoWolf on Apr-17-2005 at 22:21

I would gladly pay for my own health care insurance if they adjust our taxes to something more reasonable.

They have to abolish this free health care system. ITS NOT WORKING. The next time i need to go to the emergency for something stupid like sliver in my eye, i'll be going to buffalo. Not kidding.

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Originally posted by TrueToTheCrew I would gladly pay for my own health care insurance if they adjust our taxes to something more reasonable. They have to abolish this free health care system. ITS NOT WORKING. The next time i need to go to the emergency for something stupid like sliver in my eye, i'll be going to buffalo. Not kidding.

+1

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0...1504503,00.html

Flat Tax Revolution Puts Europe on Edge

In Bratislava last week, George W. Bush praised Slovakia's new flat tax. But what Bush finds inspiring is infuriating Western European leaders.

At the moment, the Euro Valley Industrial Park half an hour outside of Bratislava is not much more than a name.

Subcontractors to nearby Volkswagen Slovakia and other car companies inhabit some of the nondescript buildings, but much of the park is uninhabited or undeveloped. Euro Valley chairman Ivan Kocis, however, is not interested in the now, but in the future.

He is expecting all sorts of foreign investors, and his government’s decision last year to ratchet down tax rates to a uniform 19 percent is giving him reason for optimism.

“It is a very important factor,” said Kocis. “Compared to Austria, France and Germany, the companies pay almost half” of the taxes demanded by the government.

On Jan. 1 last year, Slovakia became the eighth eastern European country -- after Estonia, Russia, Hungary, Serbia, Ukraine, Lithuania and Latvia -- to introduce a flat-tax rate on income and corporate taxes. The model, adopted this year by Georgia and Romania, is considered by economists to be the best way to jump-start an economy, by luring foreign investors with low tax rates. But it is also leading to a clash between “old” and “new” Europe on the future of competition and tax reform in the European Union.

The money keeps rolling in

Slovakia’s trade and development agency, SARIO, is already reporting a jump in the number of foreign investment projects, from 22 to 47. The country, which has already attracted
Volkswagen has produced more than a million cars in Bratislava
German giants like Volkswagen and Siemens, looks forward to posing more problems for western European governments looking to stop the flow of companies moving eastwards.

In addition to already cheaper labor, countries like Ukraine, Romania and Slovakia have offered up the flat tax as an additional incentive for foreign companies.

“It definitely puts pressure on western Europe,” said Kevin Waddell, an eastern Europe-based analyst with the Boston Consulting Group.

The giants respond

Nicolas Sarkozy
European economic giants France and Germany have already voiced their disapproval. Then French Finance Minister Nicolas Sarkozy (photo) said that if the new member states could “afford” a flat tax -- which traditionally leads to a decline in tax revenues -- they wouldn’t need financial help from the European Union. Chancellor Gerhard Schröder last year also criticized the new member states for taking aid from Brussels while stealing business from western Europe.

“It is certainly unreasonable that we finance an unbridled tax competition among each other via the budget of the European Union," Schröder said last May.

Germany, by comparison, has an average corporate tax of 38 percent, a rate that economists consider one of the big reasons foreign companies are bypassing the former European giant. But Schröder shows no sign of budging.

Resistance to change in Germany

When Germany’s council of economic advisors last summer recommended the government introduce a flat tax of 30 percent, their proposal was duly ignored.

“Most politicians don’t think they can convince the population of the need for a unified tax rate,” said Wolfgang Wiegard (photo), the head of the economic council. “The reason is the concern in Germany that the redistributive role of the tax system would be reduced.”


Wolfgang Wiegard, head of the economic advisors' council


Like Sweden, Italy and France, Germany has a massive social net to support. A flat tax would mean taxing the rich at the same rate as the working class. More importantly, it would mean less tax revenues flowing into the government coffers and less money to pay for unemployment insurance, pensions, education and so on.

West should learn from east

Rather than adjust their tax rates too drastically, France and Germany are at the moment trying to push the EU into introducing a unified corporate tax rate. The strategy puzzles many in eastern Europe.

“Why should we be punished for the flat tax?” said Jozef Uhrlik, CEO of Volkswagen Slovakia, after a panel discussion in Bratislava last week. He then launched into a criticism of the union’s “irrational” labor policy, “unrealistic” environmental policy and massive agricultural budget.

“We have implemented something that is rational,” he added.


Bratislava, Slovakia's capital
Drafted and passed by the Slovak parliament at an astonishing speed in 2003, the tax is being treated warily by some in Slovakia. As part of the reform, lower taxes on certain foodstuffs and products that had meant spending relief for the working class were eliminated. Opposition politicians are concerned about the long-term consequences for those who don’t earn much, as Slovakia angles for foreign companies.

“I’m not sure it’s fair to those people,” said Pavol Pesca, an opposition parliamentarian from the poor eastern city of Kosice. “Maybe it’s fair in a more developed country with a bigger middle class.”

But that’s exactly what Slovakia’s flat tax advocates argue will emerge in the central European country. The tax reform, they say, will reward the middle class for earning and producing more, provided the investment keeps flowing in.
Andreas Tzortzis, DW-WORLD.DE

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/ma.../16/ixcity.html

Poland's single tax rate 'is wake-up call for the Chancellor'
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, European Business Editor (Filed: 16/03/2005)

Poland is to join the flat-tax revolution sweeping Eastern Europe, switching to a single band of 18pc on income tax, corporation tax, and VAT.

Mirosaw Gronicki, the Polish finance minister, said the one-tax-fits-all system would sweep away the country's complex grid of rates and exemptions by 2008.

The centre-left government is taking advantage of buoyant revenues and robust 4pc growth to halve income tax from a top level of 40pc, gambling that extra growth and tax compliance will recoup the revenue loss.

The country's two million farmers will be drawn fully into the tax net for first time, losing their de facto exemption. The new rates will be phased in over three years.

Polish officials say the tax-free threshold on personal income is likely to remain, near its current level of 37,000 zloty (£6,400).

Elections later this year pose little threat to the scheme since Poland's conservatives have proposed a 15pc flat rate, closer to Vladimir Putin's 13pc rate in Russia.

Estonia, Latvia, Slovakia, Serbia, Romania, Georgia and Ukraine, as well as Russia, already have variations of the flat tax, but Poland's geography and political weight bring the experiment into the heart of the EU.

Almost alone among the EU's new members, Hungary has said it "prefers not to follow the fad". But it can hardly ignore neighbouring Slovakia - once despised as a poor relation - as it becomes the darling of the financial markets with a 19pc tax across the board, and booming growth of 5.8pc.

Estonia kicked off the trend in 1991 with a flat-rate of 26pc on personal income, later cut to 20pc.

However, Sweden's leader, Goran Persson, complained recently that the EU's big net contributors were effectively subsidising the low tax rates of competitors.

Nicholas Sarkozy, the French finance minister, snorted that any state rich enough to allow itself the luxury of a "flat tax" clearly did not require further net transfers from Brussels.

Madsen Pirie, president of the Adam Smith Institute, said Poland's flat tax was a wake-up call for Gordon Brown, who keeps adding extra bands and complexity to the British tax system.

"The flat tax is getting closer as it marches across Europe. What's happening in Eastern Europe is an experiment being carried in practice, not theory, and the evidence is that it works," he said.

The Adam Smith Institute is to issue its own study concluding that Britain could switch to a flat income tax of 22pc (excluding the £12,000 earned) without losing government revenue. It claims that the rich would pay a greater share of the total tax bill as avoidance and evasion declined. While no West European state has seriously embraced the idea so far, a study for the German finance ministry by economist Wolfgang Wiegard recently proposed a 30pc single rate for both income and company tax.

Gabriel Stein, European economist at Lombard Street Research, said the political landscape was changing fast in Berlin. "The Germans are much more open-minded about this than the French, or indeed Gordon Brown. They are sufficiently worried about what's going on to look into this issue," he said.

Analysts say that a whole industry of tax advisers, consultants and shelters depend on the complexity of tax systems in western Europe, creating entrenched vested interests with enough political clout to hinder change.

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