Maybe we need a real crucifixion next to rile the muslims. And I don't mean that Abu Gharib photo. A pic of Saddam or Al-Zarquawi or even Chemical Ali hanging up there would be nice.


[[[smoke]]]

the koran is very important to muslims, even though most cant quote from it or use it effectivly or even read it. its just a shield for them to go behind when they're attacked. the Kuran says some very interesting things, among these, that all religions are inferior, that people of the Book (referring to the Old Testament, aka Jews) should be respected (look at Israel, theyre really following that one :rollseyes: ) and that women are inferior to men. also, theyre 2nd most holy site, in Jerusalem is covered with curses against people of other religions. tollerant? i dont think so...

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quote:

Originally posted by yarzan the koran is very important to muslims, even though most cant quote from it or use it effectivly or even read it. its just a shield for them to go behind when they're attacked. the Kuran says some very interesting things, among these, that all religions are inferior, that people of the Book (referring to the Old Testament, aka Jews) should be respected (look at Israel, theyre really following that one :rollseyes: ) and that women are inferior to men. also, theyre 2nd most holy site, in Jerusalem is covered with curses against people of other religions. tollerant? i dont think so...

Does the Koran say women are inferior? I always assumed that was just a cultural thing (as it is everywhere else in the world)

Anyway, you fluffed up there by saying the Koran says Jews (and Christians as they are "people of the book" too) should be respected then you finish by saying that it is not tolerant (which I take to mean Islam is not tolerant)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Does the Koran say women are inferior?

Apparently not:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/womencanada.htm

Biased but better argued than a simple claim to the opposite (the post by yarzan).

Equally, you could say Judaism has no respect for women...

quote:

Originally posted by yarzan and that women are inferior to men.

uhhh.. no it doesn't. Islam was one of the first doctrines (if not the first) to incorperate women's rights/respect for women. Mohammad's wife Khadija was on of the most sucessful business women in Arabia at the time. That's how he met her.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by yarzan the Kuran says some very interesting things, among these, that all religions are inferior

I'm reading the Old Testament at the moment, and you could hardly say that the OT doesn't share some very similar sentiments.

For example:

quote:

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

quote:

Exodus 34:11-17 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same. 17 "Do not make cast idols.

And I won't post the entire thing, because it's very long, but check out Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 7 to see what happens if you don't agree to follow Yahweh's commands as the one true God. Not pleasant.

quote:

that people of the Book (referring to the Old Testament, aka Jews) should be respected (look at Israel, theyre really following that one :rollseyes: )

Not really:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org.../koranjews.html

It acknowledges that Islam evolved from Christianity and Judaism, but that followers of both doctrines have ultimately strayed from Allah.

quote:

and that women are inferior to men.

The Old Testament says that woman is forever to be cursed with subservience to man as atonement for Eve's original sin:

quote:

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Perhaps feminists protesting against institutional mysogeny could start holding up "Genesis 3:16" signs at sporting events?

Also:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

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http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

… You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. (Surat al-Ma'ida, 82)

thats in the koran for ya, respect christians...

2.47: O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

Allah (God) talking about Jews and

3.33: Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh (Noah im guessing) and the descendants of Ibrahim (abraham, father of all Jews) and the descendants of Imran above the nations.

what i meant by intolerant is this:

Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them. For you must know that Allah is forgiving and merciful. 5:33-34

Let not the unbelievers think that We (Allah) prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them. Sura 3:178

"reduce them" (Sura 5:34) sounds very tolerant to me

Renegade, I also never said the OT was tolerant to other religions, but if you read the new terstament, it clearly says love your enemy as yourself.

quote:

The Old Testament says that woman is forever to be cursed with subservience to man as atonement for Eve's original sin

yes but it does not say they are worth less than men, just that they should listen to them. in the same way your are not worth less than your teacher, you jsut have to listen to him.

“Men have authority over women, for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient … and those you fear may be rebellious, admonish them to their couches, and beat them”. (The Koran, Women, verse 38)

AND BEAT THEM?!?!?! the OT and NT say NOTHING of violence towards females.

if i forgot to respond to any posts directed at me, please let me know, and ill be glad to respond to some more, i didnt do it on purpose, but i just woke up and i must have missed some.

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^^^ I love it when ppl quote things out of context, ignoring the historical context under which the verses were revealed aswell. It's pretty damn easy to quote a few verses out of context and make it look like something else. Do yourself a favor yarzan and go and read the entire surah(and other Surahs related to the same issues) and do some research on Islamic History and the conditions under which tey (surahs) were revealed.

quote:

“Men have authority over women, for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient … and those you fear may be rebellious, admonish them to their couches, and beat them”. (The Koran, Women, verse 38)

For example, you conveniently omitted part of the verse with dots (where it says husbands are to punish their wives if they cheat on them, and the punishment for men cheating on their wives is even more severe btw(not mentioned in the same Surah)).

Your post is very misleading (and I wouldn't be surprised if you deliberately did that, and neigther would I be surprised if that's what you've been taught).

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

did on purpose? nope, simply a few google searches stuck together in response to some other posts.

left out on purpose? nope, also simply quoted from a website.

for the fact to show that im ont doing this on purpose, i'll quote the entire verse, and we'll see if it takes any weight off the "beat them part"

as it seems both of us were wrong, since the actual verse is verse 34 and not 38, it states (translation)

"4.34": Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

" those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them"

...there you have it

its all here if you want to look at it:

Koran: The Women

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quote:

Originally posted by yarzan "4.34": Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

First of all, that's a very bad (and misleading) translation (not just those particular verses, but he entire thing). Here's a much more reliable and accurate translation of the same verse you're referring to.

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, Next, refuse to share their beds, And last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, great above you all."(04:34 Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

pay attention to this part:
"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, Next, refuse to share their beds, And last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance"

"given the one more strength than the other" -physical strength

"guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct" -i.e. they're not supposed to cheat on you

"beat them lightly" (translated from Arabic) in this sense means like a slap or something less harmful than that, not using your fist or taking a bat to her head. And as you noticed, that's a last resort. I can't find the relevant verses rightnow and neigther am I really bothered to do that, but Islam teaches being kind and respectful towards women (including your wives).

Prophet Muhammad once said: "The best amongst you is he who is best towards his wife."

Point being, you seriously misunderstand what Islam teaches when it comes to dealing with one's wife. I'm not an Islamic Scholar or anything but I have a pretty good understanding of Islam and Muslim culture so I can smell horseshit like your post from a mile away (I'm not trying to attack you here, but the content of the copy paste you made).

EDIT: @yarzaan, so I wouldnt recommend trying to argue about Islam against me. I've grown up reading and interpretting the Quran. You've quite clearly demonstrated that you have a very poor understanding of it.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller