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Originally posted by trancaholic ^^^ WTF, a non-French French nationalist?

Socialism is a universal language. A human one.

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Originally posted by brashy Socialism

It's spelled "isolationism".

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Originally posted by brashy A "Yes" vote for the Constituion could prove disastrous for France in the long run. The economical threats are clear, but there is also another aspect of the problem. France has a unique culture, and has always been in the spotlight on the European Stage, through tradition, architecure, ideological enlightment, literature, music, painting, science. If voted "yes", the French people, from main actors, will become figurants. They don't deserve such a treatment. They don't deserve to share the money, attention and political power with boorish eastern people that have discovered the hygiene 10 years ago. For all the French people :"Stay French and be proud of it! Vote No!"

What the fuck?!

really, the constitution wont change anything of this!!!! if france is serious about those issues, then they should get the fuck out of the EU, which would make more sense than to vote no for the constitution! then we could watch france slowly self destruct and one day they might want to join us again as a third world country on our conditions!!!

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Originally posted by brashy They don't deserve to share the money, attention and political power with boorish eastern people that have discovered the hygiene 10 years ago.

Umm, and considering that your flag is romanian, does that imply that you yourself have discovered hygiene 10 years ago as well?

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Originally posted by brashy A "Yes" vote for the Constituion could prove disastrous for France in the long run. The economical threats are clear, but there is also another aspect of the problem. France has a unique culture, and has always been in the spotlight on the European Stage, through tradition, architecure, ideological enlightment, literature, music, painting, science. If voted "yes", the French people, from main actors, will become figurants. They don't deserve such a treatment. They don't deserve to share the money, attention and political power with boorish eastern people that have discovered the hygiene 10 years ago. For all the French people :"Stay French and be proud of it! Vote No!"

Just wondering what these 'clear' economic threats are, to be exact??

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A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

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Originally posted by Dupz It does seem that the "NO" vote is merely based upon protectionism of domestic markets. In an age of globalisation and economic rationalism i'm not quite sure how this attitude can survive in such an educated and developed country like France.. (well, Southern and Mid-west America are exempt from such rational thought ) It's strange how a country like Germany had passed the constitution in a landslide vote, even though they've been hammered by the introduction of the EU (in an economic sense). Germany is still reeling from the transitional effects of the Euro but are still open to even further change.. Personally, i dont know much of the EU constitution but from what i've gathered a "YES" vote signifies your acceptance for a brighter future, while a "NO" vote signifies your acceptance of a substandard status quo

I think an important point to be made here is that it was not the German people that passed the new constitution, it was the German Parliment, the people were not given a vote.

If the public had been allowed to vote in a referendum the result could have been different, im not saying would have been, im saying could have been.

Not all governments are giving their public the right to vote on this constitution, and this in my opinion is wrong, especially on such an important issue, but this is how most referendums in the EU are passed, only certain countries allow their electorate to vote on these issues. In the countries that dont vote the ruling party of the day pushes the legislation through.

And this is the democracy we call the European Union.

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Originally posted by zig I think an important point to be made here is that it was not the German people that passed the new constitution, it was the German Parliment, the people were not given a vote. If the public had been allowed to vote in a referendum the result could have been different, im not saying would have been, im saying could have been. Not all governments are giving their public the right to vote on this constitution, and this in my opinion is wrong, especially on such an important issue, but this is how most referendums in the EU are passed, only certain countries allow their electorate to vote on these issues. In the countries that dont vote the ruling party of the day pushes the legislation through. And this is the democracy we call the European Union.

the problem is that ppl dont think longer than their noose. Its impossible to create a treaty that 25 member countries can be perfectly satisfied with, you gotta compromise to get it to work. Ppl dont realize that (just see of whats happening in france), politicians on the other hand who is more into the politics, do realise it. Thats why almost every paliament is 70%+ for and most countries populations are against.

Also, very few have read the constitution and know what it is about. Again, just see whats happening in france, the things they complain about in the constitution is already etablished in current treaties, but yet they vote no because they think that somehow will solve the "problem". Pure ignorance. Democracy do no good here.

^ exactly what I was going to say.

Here if the Sun and the other red tops said painting your balls red ment you were more British and all thouse who don't paint their balls red were anti-British you'd find vast sections of our society out buying red paint....

And it's in the papers intrests for the debate to be polerised. It means more sales.

So i was just reading some stuff about the refferendum in the holland, and it seems very similar to the french one. I dont think that a dutch no would mean as much as a french no tho, but if we get two no's within 2 days, i dont know if the constitution will survive (even tho it has been ratified by something like 10 countries already?).

In holland 85% of the parliament is for the consitution,
All the unions,
The environmental organisations,
the businesses/industries,
and there is really no organised no compaign.

Yet only 40% of the ppl are going to vote "yes" right now

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Originally posted by zig I think an important point to be made here is that it was not the German people that passed the new constitution, it was the German Parliment, the people were not given a vote. If the public had been allowed to vote in a referendum the result could have been different, im not saying would have been, im saying could have been. Not all governments are giving their public the right to vote on this constitution, and this in my opinion is wrong, especially on such an important issue, but this is how most referendums in the EU are passed, only certain countries allow their electorate to vote on these issues. In the countries that dont vote the ruling party of the day pushes the legislation through. And this is the democracy we call the European Union.

Fair point Zig, I had no idea that it was mostly parliaments that voted in the constitution. It's not something we're too familiar with here in Australia.

To be honest though, I have to side with St_Andrew and Dervish on this one. In many cases (including this one) it seems that democracy will fail to implement a righteous outcome. The problem doesnt lie in ignorance of the general population (although it plays a big part sometimes) it lies in the fact that people dont have access to the proper information, in order to make a logical and coherent decision. Coupling the fact that there are too many deadbeats out there, and the fact that they have no idea what's going on, is a dangerous mix for democracy.

Let democracy prevail in places where it's actually of use. Let the parliamentarians (who more informed on such issues that the general population) come to a majority rules decision.

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A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

Here is some interesting read too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4538249.stm

About how all the main arguments really is against treaties already established!